Precepts and Perfections and Other Lowly Things

Hello friends,

In this forum, there is much good discussion about Emptiness, Suchness, Shikantaza, Gathas, and other very good topics for discussion. However, it seems that the "beginner" or "number" topics do not surface as much, i.e.,

4 Noble Truths,
Noble 8-fold Path,
6 Perfections,
12-fold Chain of Dependent Origination,
16 Bodhisattva Precepts.

While discussion of Emptiness, Suchness, etc. can lead to very good and fruitful discourse, I am considering taking a sabbatical from these discussions in order to focus on some of the less spoken of topics here; a sort of "Beginners Retreat," if you will, for this perennial beginner. What I am wondering is whether any of you would be inclined to join me, to discuss the material and explain where my thoughts or interpretations are misguided or just wildly inaccurate.

Please let me know. I will be using this thread to post any musings or insights that come up as I go through the teachings here, starting with the "Buddha Basics" section of the "Talks and Teachings..." forum.

Metta,

Saijun

Saijun,please do so...

4, 8,6, 12, 16...Numbers.
Drawing life by numbers...or letters...
By the way the so called suchness (not even a word, once you don't care) contains all numbers.

Back to basics...Sure!

The real basic is nameless, wordless and numberless.

Forget even your name and why and what you came for
SHIKANTAZA
Forget numbers, words and letters


sometimes things have to be explained
Sometimes things have to be silenced and kept unsaid


Do as you wish, and spare us the lesson about this being better than that

In suchness


gassho



Taigu

Don't forget the Jukai Forum for the Precepts

viewforum.php?f=7

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Do as you wish, and spare us the lesson about this being better than that

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Hello Rev. Taigu,

I'm sorry if my message was interpreted as a "lesson about this being better than that." Really, it was just meant to say that I as a practitioner feel that I need to get "back to basics" for a short while, and inviting others to join me if they choose.

Not better, not worse, not even really different.

Just a refresher course for an always-deluded always-beginner.

Metta,

Saijun

And..don't forget that every inch of this unniverse is Kannon

if it is not so, what is it?

Glass? edge? car? newspaper? boy? Girl?


it is both an neither nor.

kannon's body.

Watch.

Listen.

You can challenge, Saijun.
You may not.
Open. Open.

Kannon



beyond

so much beyond

it is here and now.


gassho



Taigu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

Don't forget the Jukai Forum for the Precepts

viewforum.php?f=7

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Hello Mike,

That was actually what sparked the thought in the first place; for a practitioner as weak as I am, the more I can study and work toward personifying the precepts, the better, and most of the activity in the precept study forum happens during Ango and the months before Jukai.

Metta,

Saijun

You are not weak, not weaker than I am
And all this sounds sooooooooooooooooo spiritual :roll:


Read what I wrote with care. Be gentle to yourself. See kannon in your life and let it go.

No big deal, really.

Taigu

Hello Saijun,

I'm always in for a good discussion. I will contribute in any way I can. Hopefully, many others in our samgha will join in too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

Don't forget the Jukai Forum for the Precepts

viewforum.php?f=7

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Hello Mike,

That was actually what sparked the thought in the first place; for a practitioner as weak as I am, the more I can study and work toward personifying the precepts, the better, and most of the activity in the precept study forum happens during Ango and the months before Jukai.

Metta,

Saijun

---

It sounds like a good idea. I think intellectually understanding and working with these topics can be helpful, only after that can we truly be able to let it go and embody it.

I too wanted to go back to the precept to deepen my shallow understanding of it...

Four noble truths are a good place to start. Buddha's first discourse. Let's see how it goes...

Gassho

Seiryu

I'm with you Saijun (Can I call you Perry, or do you prefer Saijun?). I understand what Taigu is getting at, but for those of us particularly with short backgrounds in Buddhism/Zen, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

So where do you want to start? I'm game!

Gassho,
Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matto

I'm with you Saijun (Can I call you Perry, or do you prefer Saijun?). I understand what Taigu is getting at, but for those of us particularly with short backgrounds in Buddhism/Zen, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

So where do you want to start? I'm game!

Gassho,
Matt

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Hello Matt,

Oh, Saijun, Perry, Foolish, Idjit (that's an Arkansas word :wink:); call me whatever you'd like--it's all beating around the bush anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seiryu

It sounds like a good idea. I think intellectually understanding and working with these topics can be helpful, only after that can we truly be able to let it go and embody it.

I too wanted to go back to the precept to deepen my shallow understanding of it...

Four noble truths are a good place to start. Buddha's first discourse. Let's see how it goes...

Gassho

Seiryu

---

Hello Seiryu,

Does there have to be a dichotomy between understanding and letting go? Where does one start and the other end?

After re-reading Rev. Taigu's remarks a few times, I think I have an inkling into what he was saying, and it was sage guidance for me, for sure. Perhaps he will be kind enough to give us additional perspective on occasion, with his decades of experience and insight.

Perhaps taking the discussion slowly, with a day or two for reading and reflection, and a few days for discussion of each point?

Maybe we could find time for an occasional Skype conference call to discuss "face to face (or voice to voice)" on occasion?

Just thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

Quote:

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Saijun wrote:
In this forum, there is much good discussion about Emptiness, Suchness, Shikantaza, Gathas, and other very good topics for discussion. However, it seems that the "beginner" or "number" topics do not surface as much, i.e.,

4 Noble Truths,
Noble 8-fold Path,
6 Perfections,
12-fold Chain of Dependent Origination,
16 Bodhisattva Precepts.

While discussion of Emptiness, Suchness, etc. can lead to very good and fruitful discourse, I am considering taking a sabbatical from these discussions in order to focus on some of the less spoken of topics here; a sort of "Beginners Retreat," if you will, for this perennial beginner. What I am wondering is whether any of you would be inclined to join me, to discuss the material and explain where my thoughts or interpretations are misguided or just wildly inaccurate.

---

Hi Saijun,
I think this is a great idea. A good refresher for veterans and learning opportunity for the newer folks like me.

Gassho,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Does there have to be a dichotomy between understanding and letting go? Where does one start and the other end?

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Of course not, they both feed off each other. there is no end to one and beginning to the other.

But someone I feel that understanding things in the head is often looked down upon since it is not yet an experience. (maybe thats just my wrong view on it) so I wanted to sort of bring them both back into light.

Gassho

Seiryu

Just some food for non-thoughts...

Real understanding has nothing to do with our head.
There is nothing wrong with our head.
No need to be headless chicken or man.
What is really wrong is how attached we are with what 's going on up there.

This thread is great, a good refresher. Go on, bring the notions and potions. Let's have a look at this.

gassho


Taigu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Just some food for non-thoughts...

Real understanding has nothing to do with our head.
There is nothing wrong with our head.
No need to be headless chicken or man.
What is really wrong is how attached we are with what 's going on up there.

This thread is great, a good refresher. Go on, bring the notions and potions. Let's have a look at this.

gassho


Taigu

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But didn't Dogen argue that only painted rice cakes could satisfy hunger? Yes, there is nothing wrong with our head, but as Jundo always notes, we are human and need to let our minds work on ideas, too. Are discussion of the four noble truths, paramitas, et al not useful for everyone, but especially for those new to Buddhism/Zen? Why do we spend so much time studying for Jukai when real understanding has nothing to do with our head?

Maybe we need a bit of thinking along with our thinking-non-thinking? It seems perspectives are different for those who've been practicing for decades as opposed to a few years!

I don't know...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matto

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Just some food for non-thoughts...

Real understanding has nothing to do with our head.
There is nothing wrong with our head.
No need to be headless chicken or man.
What is really wrong is how attached we are with what 's going on up there.

This thread is great, a good refresher. Go on, bring the notions and potions. Let's have a look at this.

gassho


Taigu

---

But didn't Dogen argue that only painted rice cakes could satisfy hunger? Yes, there is nothing wrong with our head, but as Jundo always notes, we are human and need to let our minds work on ideas, too. Are discussion of the four noble truths, paramitas, et al not useful for everyone, but especially for those new to Buddhism/Zen? Why do we spend so much time studying for Jukai when real understanding has nothing to do with our head?

Maybe we need a bit of thinking along with our thinking-non-thinking? It seems perspectives are different for those who've been practicing for decades as opposed to a few years!

I don't know...

---

Study the self, and then drop it. When we are this, then things are whole. Nothing to gain. All is fine, but where does that leads us? Does it lead us down a path of continual consumption or want, or does it lead us to a more rightous direction. Playing with Karma.

Let's put it this way. I could sit Zazen all day, and then the next perhaps I may revert to the same old same old. It's a matter of just being you. Through and through. So, If you want to study Buddhism, then please, go ahead. If you want anything at all, it's not Zen.

Gassho (and part of our practice. Bright illumination, and pain. All the same)

_/_ W

We are all beginners, Matto. And I totally agree with you. To study is important and precious as long as it takes us to the cushion where what we have studied is alive and lived. I always invite people to sit and let Buddha do the job. in challenging ( a bit) the will to understand, I am pointing at a real tendency in alll of us to turn fresh water into concepts. But of course study is very important, NOT SEEN AS SEPARATE FROM SHIKANTAZA. As to Shobogenzo 's painted cake, please help yourself...
Will puts it in a very good way:

Quote:

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if you want to study Buddhism, then please, go ahead. If you want anything at all, it's not Zen.

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That being said, yes, it is a very good idea.

gassho


Taigu

Life is suffering
If you follow your thinking and emotions
Just being and returning tojustbeing is nirvana, is peace, is the balanced state
But we don't stay in any one state or place
We go to work helping ourselves and others.
getting all caught up in this
Wehave to practice returning to just this

What's the 2nd one?

One thing.. As Taigu noted Don't thing less of yourself, that you are weaker, less informed, etc. Daido Roshi said, "self deprecation is the sign of a big ego."

I'm not trying to be provocative.

In any case thank you all for your thoughtful responses and this topic.

Gassho

Risho

Don't worry Risho, I am not :twisted: . teachers are all different, they talk about the same mountain from a slight different viewpoint. In this case could you be more precise? What does Daido say that I did not?

Thank you

gassho


T.

Hi All,

This discussion reminds me of the post Edward started a while ago titled "Study Buddhism?".
Many of the same thoughts and ideas are playing out here. Seems like a hot topic as there still is many opinions on it!

Gassho,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRBrisson

Hi All,

This discussion reminds me of the post Edward started a while ago titled "Study Buddhism?".
Many of the same thoughts and ideas are playing out here. Seems like a hot topic as there still is many opinions on it!

Gassho,
John

---

Very true.

I just came to realize just how important a steady sitting practice is in conjunction with study. If we just sit just because someone tells us to with no study, that might not be so beneficial since we won't really know why are what we are doing, and if we just study without sitting, then we will never get to experience what is being studied and the whole thing we just remain an idea. ....ah the middle way

I just came from a class taught by a Tibetan monk, the whole class was engage in a debate over what does it mean that something is lacking inherent existence. And it went back and forth, arguing over definitions, karma, rebirth, the whole nine yards. I wondered if debating like that was going too far off...maybe a short sit would have brought everything back down to a calmer state.

interesting though...

Gassho

Seiryu

Quote:

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Seiryu wrote:
If we just sit just because someone tells us to with no study, that might not be so beneficial since we won't really know why are what we are doing, and if we just study without sitting, then we will never get to experience what is being studied and the whole thing we just remain an idea. ....ah the middle way

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Your words here are like music to my ears! _/_

Yes, very wise words Seiryu.
Cursing the sky, the dragon bites his tail.
tales fall apart. One, two, three ...


The Middle way...it is not the in-between. It is the one with. Practice as study, study as practice. When ractice and study cannot be differenciated. Somethig along that line.


gassho


Taigu

I like Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation of the Four Noble Truths.

Suffering is real and cannot be avoided.

Suffering gives us a chance to look into the cause of suffering. Very important step!

And the Third Noble Truth is my favorite. That although there is suffering, joy is possible.

Like suffering, joy too has a cause.

Too often we get stuck in our suffering without realizing what a tremendous opportunity it gives us to realize freedom and joy. Suffering is not the end-all-be-all of this path. Joy is. Freedom is. Thich actually thinks that we should reverse the order of the Four Noble Truths. This is an interesting idea. Any thoughts?

gassho
Greg

Quote:

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Taigu wrote:
The Middle way...it is not the in-between. It is the one with. Practice as study, study as practice. When ractice and study cannot be differenciated. Somethig along that line.

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Thank you Taigu Sensei for the reminder that practice and study are inseparably one and the same!

Gassho,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghop

I like Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation of the Four Noble Truths.

Suffering is real and cannot be avoided.

Suffering gives us a chance to look into the cause of suffering. Very important step!

And the Third Noble Truth is my favorite. That although there is suffering, joy is possible.

Like suffering, joy too has a cause.

Too often we get stuck in our suffering without realizing what a tremendous opportunity it gives us to realize freedom and joy. Suffering is not the end-all-be-all of this path. Joy is. Freedom is. Thich actually thinks that we should reverse the order of the Four Noble Truths. This is an interesting idea. Any thoughts?

gassho
Greg

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I think that would go along way to helping people see that Buddhism is not morbid or obsessed with suffering! "Suffering is real and cannot be avoided" sounds so much better than the "Life is suffering" I've heard elsewhere.

You bring up an important distinction, that it's not so much an escape from suffering (running in fear), but an embrace, to see that the way out is through. I know that my perspective on suffering--any unpleasant experience, really--is quite different since I started practicing. I no longer dwell on it, but question it, try to get to the heart of it. And often I do find joy on the other side. But then not to get attached to joy! :)

Gassho,
Matt

Joy has no cause.
The meaning of Nirvana is cessation.
The causeless is Nirvana.

Joy comes, as flowers, simple or big things, a morning shower, a friend's face. Sitting. Laughing.
cannot split this into cause and effect ( the very big Buddhist trip), cause and effect so true, all along.

but here, but now
Joy has no cause


Does it ring a bell???

gassho


Taigu


PS: Great stuff from the guy though. I quite like the idea of ending in the way it starts.
For you and me, very true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghop

I like Thich Nhat Hanh's interpretation of the Four Noble Truths.

Suffering is real and cannot be avoided.

Suffering gives us a chance to look into the cause of suffering. Very important step!

And the Third Noble Truth is my favorite. That although there is suffering, joy is possible.

Like suffering, joy too has a cause.

Too often we get stuck in our suffering without realizing what a tremendous opportunity it gives us to realize freedom and joy. Suffering is not the end-all-be-all of this path. Joy is. Freedom is. Thich actually thinks that we should reverse the order of the Four Noble Truths. This is an interesting idea. Any thoughts?

gassho
Greg

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Hello Greg,

I've gradually learned to see them sort of differently:

1.) There is stress (or dissatisfaction, if you prefer--they mean the same to me) inherent in life.
2.) This stress comes from a deep craving for things to be as we want them to be, rather than as they are.
3.) There is a Way to the let go of this craving, and end stress/dissatisfaction.
4.) This Way is comprised of the Noble Eightfold Path.

I think that the whole of the Dharma can sort of be boiled down into that old joke:

Quote:

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"Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this! [does it] Ow!"
"Well, then, stop doing that."

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(See viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2926 for more detailed and entertaining exploration)

And "this" refers to clinging, and the whole of the practice is learning how to "stop doing that." When I (we?) sit Shikantaza, it provides us a chance to let go of everything, good and bad and whatever is in between. Suffering and joy are concepts that define each other. When we sit, and let go of all of our definitions and concepts, what is left?

For this reason, I'm not sure that I agree with Rev. TNH's view on this (though I'm sure that it is much more informed by experience than mine is). And as far as reversing the order, I don't necessarily think it's quite that simple; I, at least, came to the Dharma after having deeply, deeply experienced the first Noble Truth, and began working on the Noble Eightfold Path. I'm rather dubious of the notion that people come to work on suffering when everything is peachy (at least initially).

As I work with the Eightfold Path, it consistently shows me the validity of the 3rd Truth, and allows me to experience the freedom of the 2nd.

Just initial thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

EDIT: Just saw Rev. Taigu's post after hitting "Submit," and it raised a question--do you think that it is possible to not get attached to even causeless joy? Would that be the end of the path, or is there something beyond?

Quote:

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I think that would go along way to helping people see that Buddhism is not morbid or obsessed with suffering! "Suffering is real and cannot be avoided" sounds so much better than the "Life is suffering" I've heard elsewhere.

---

Hi All,
Something I had heard before is that life is suffering is a translation different from how the Buddha actually worded it. It was said to be something more along the line of life is not having contentment. I can't remember exactly how it was put but the speaker stressed the difference. Perhaps someone here may shed some light on this?

Gassho,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRBrisson

Quote:

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I think that would go along way to helping people see that Buddhism is not morbid or obsessed with suffering! "Suffering is real and cannot be avoided" sounds so much better than the "Life is suffering" I've heard elsewhere.

---

Hi All,
Something I had heard before is that life is suffering is a translation different from how the Buddha actually worded it. It was said to be something more along the line of life is not having contentment. I can't remember exactly how it was put but the speaker stressed the difference. Perhaps someone here may shed some light on this?

Gassho,
John

---

To my knowledge the Buddha did not say "Life is suffering" He said "Life is Dukkha" Dukkha meaning more along the lines of unsatisfactoriness, dissatisfaction, discomfort,stress, and frustration. And the cause of this "Dukkha" is our grasping mind, on wanted to have a permanent something to hold on to.
I think the translation of dissatisfaction is better than suffering. We are dissatisfied with life because it is not the way we want it to be.

"Life is Dukkha"

Gassho

Seiryu

Causeless joy is so easy, like clear water, things beautiful..getting attached or not is not an issue anymore.

going to bed...

joy


gassho


Taigu

Freedom has to be lived in the world, and living in the world means identifying oneself with everything for the sake of experience and activity. Even suffering. Especially suffering.

I once heard Nirvana described this way. Our ego is like a tire inflated with hot air. Nirvana, which means "to blow out," is when all the hot air is let out of our tire, leaving only emptiness.

Suffering only exists on the level of thought. When we sit, who suffers? But when we rise we start the game all over again. Cause and effect. Taigu, I really like this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Joy has no cause.
The meaning of Nirvana is cessation.
The causeless is Nirvana.

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It tastes like emptiness. Refreshingly beautiful.

gassho
Greg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Causeless joy is so easy, like clear water, things beautiful..getting attached or not is not an issue anymore.

going to bed...

joy


gassho


Taigu

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Thank you, Rev. Taigu.

Gassho,

Saijun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seiryu

I think the translation of dissatisfaction is better than suffering. We are dissatisfied with life because it is not the way we want it to be.

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I agree. Kinda. Dissatisfaction is just a well dressed way of saying suffering. We have to call it what it is. There are degrees to it, but it's still suffering. NOT LIFE. Life is not suffering. Dukkha is like a finger that is out of joint. Nothing wrong with the finger. It just needs to be restored to its natural state. We suffer when we expect Mexican food then at the last minute our wife says she would rather have Chinese. There are physical changes that take place in the nervouse system when we don't get what we want. I think it goes deeper than dissatisfaction. If not, then freedom could be called satisfaction. I've never experienced any lasting satisfaction, or dissatisfaction for that matter. They come and go. But suffering, suffering is always with me, in thoughts I want to go away, in thoughts I want to cling to, in experiences, in everything. It's not bad. Nobody is punishing us. It's just Reality. Without suffering we would never have a chance to develop compassion.

gassho
Greg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghop

I agree. Kinda. Dissatisfaction is just a well dressed way of saying suffering. We have to call it what it is. There are degrees to it, but it's still suffering. NOT LIFE. Life is not suffering. Dukkha is like a finger that is out of joint. Nothing wrong with the finger. It just needs to be restored to its natural state. We suffer when we expect Mexican food then at the last minute our wife says she would rather have Chinese. There are physical changes that take place in the nervouse system when we don't get what we want. I think it goes deeper than dissatisfaction. If not, then freedom could be called satisfaction. I've never experienced any lasting satisfaction, or dissatisfaction for that matter. They come and go. But suffering, suffering is always with me, in thoughts I want to go away, in thoughts I want to cling to, in experiences, in everything. It's not bad. Nobody is punishing us. It's just Reality. Without suffering we would never have a chance to develop compassion.

gassho
Greg

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Wow! I really like this!

Although I will not call dissatisfaction a well dressed up way of saying suffering. only because, when these words such as Dukkha get translating into our culture and language they take on all the connotations and ideas our language has on the word. Every time I thought of the word suffering, I would think of war, starving children, and all the horrors that unfortunately or a part of life. But I wouldn't call life that. Life is not exempt from that, but that is certainly not the sum total of it.

But you are right; without some degree of suffering, dissatisfaction, or whatever, we would not have to chance to develop compassion.

Gassho

Seiryu

I will keep this short since I am on a quick lunch break.

I have viewed it simply as clinging leads to suffering. Letting of clinging leads to the release of suffering. I heard a Thervada teacher once say "Nothing is worth is clinging to". Sometimes I will say this to myself when I feel an attachment and it helps to let it go. Clinging is like a domino effect that leads to aversion, greed, ignorance, selfishness and anger. But letting of clinging can domino effect that leads to mindfulness, clarity, peace, compassion, lovingkindess and wisdom.

Thanks,
Jodi

Quote:

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Seiryu wrote:
To my knowledge the Buddha did not say "Life is suffering" He said "Life is Dukkha" Dukkha meaning more along the lines of unsatisfactoriness, dissatisfaction, discomfort,stress, and frustration. And the cause of this "Dukkha" is our grasping mind, on wanted to have a permanent something to hold on to.

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Hi Seiryu,
Thanks. This is more of the translation that was being expressed in the Dharma talk I had heard. The point was that using the phrase Life is Suffering really gives Buddhism a depressive view. The concern was that Buddhist, from the outside observer, would seem to have a negative perspective of existence. At least that's feeling of the individual giving the Dharma talk. I could understand the concern to an extent.

Gassho,
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Don't worry Risho, I am not :twisted: . teachers are all different, they talk about the same mountain from a slight different viewpoint. In this case could you be more precise? What does Daido say that I did not?

Thank you

gassho


T.

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Nothing. I thought you worded it great! It just reminded me of something I read. This point struck me deeply because I use self deprecation to elevate myself. Well I catch myself doing it now at least :)

Gassho Risho

Blessed are they that expect nothing; for they shall not be disappointed :)

This morning i forgot to put the carafe in the coffee maker. result is, lots of coffee grounds running around on the counter in a sea of concentrated coffee water; a rather disconcerting scenario :cry:. (Not what I wanted but it was what it was) Before zen? or rather sometime since starting practice (measured in years) I would have been quite upset. Now, I took a breath, cleaned up the mess and brewed another pot; got on with life without getting hung up on my lapse in awareness. 8)

Quote:

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It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
Epictetus

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Hi Everyone,

I have a suggestion for this post since this will probably get really long. Maybe we can have separate posts for each of the subjects: 4 Noble Truths, Noble 8-fold Path, 6 Perfections, 12-fold Chain of Dependent Origination, 16 Bodhisattva Precepts. We can have a consistent label to differentiate it from the other posts that starts with something like Treeleaf's Buddha Basics: ....

Just an idea to simply.

Thanks,
Jodi

Hi Jodi,

I like your idea!

Gassho,
John

Thanks Jodi.

Saijun, where do you want to start???

gassho

Taigu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Thanks Jodi.

Saijun, where do you want to start???

gassho

Taigu

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Hello Rev. Taigu,

I suppose we should start with the Four Noble Truths; I'll set up the thread, and perhaps a moderator/admin would be kind enough to move the already-submitted-posts regarding them to the new one.

Metta,

Saijun

[quote]The Middle way...it is not the in-between. It is the one with. Practice as study, study as practice. When ractice and study cannot be differenciated. Somethig along that line./quote]

Changing the topic a little Taigu, or other treeleafers, could you expand on this idea for me.

Great idea, Jodi, and thanks again, Saijun, for getting this going!

Gassho,
Matt

yes Mike, i often bumped into people thinking that the middle way meant somewhere in betwwen, not too much this or that, a fine balance between opposites, a form of tuning etc. This is not what the Buddha originally meant, Katagiri roshi states somewhere that what is rendered in English by "right" as opposed to "wrong" is not a satisfactory translation of the original wording of Buddha that meant "one with". When you live, you are involved in an undivide activity of living, fully, utterly living. That's what I meant.

I am sick to the back teeth with morality in letters ( my heavy and bumpy catholic background with abuses and lies...). We study the precepts to understand what arises from the activity of shikantaza, not to follow rules and laws coming from above, nothing like Judaism and the Christian way ( And I am sure true Judaism or Christianity have little to do with the hypocritical moralistic preaching you will find almost everywhere). So if we happen to manifest generosity or compassion, or if we manifest a balanced state, it doesn't arise from the reading of texts but it is blossom of living practice.

That's why I like Rumi. Words of wisdom flow out of his bouncing heart and whirling dance.



gassho


Taigu

Thank you for the clarification. Interesting when you say, "We study the precepts to understand what arises from the activity of shinkantaza". It felt like you poked me with a stick. Haha

Today, I was struggling with an idea. A nagging voice inside kept saying, "Let it be," whenever the question arose, but it wasn't Mother Mary.

I read something Taigu posted:

"sometimes things have to be explained
Sometimes things have to be silenced and kept unsaid"

I felt confirmation of a new understanding.

Thank you, Taigu
A bow for you
Gassho

/ Amelia

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taigu

yes Mike, i often bumped into people thinking that the middle way meant somewhere in betwwen, not too much this or that, a fine balance between opposites, a form of tuning etc. This is not what the Buddha originally meant, Katagiri roshi states somewhere that what is rendered in English by "right" as opposed to "wrong" is not a satisfactory translation of the original wording of Buddha that meant "one with". When you live, you are involved in an undivide activity of living, fully, utterly living. That's what I meant.

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I also needed "enlightening" on the subject.

Gassho.

/ Amelia