Shikantaza or tranquilizing the ego?

At the risk of starting a more contentious conversation than I'd like to start, I heard something from a talk that got me thinking about this practice and my approach to it.

Shikantaza is pretty radical. Radically normal, but still pretty radical.

I think there's a difference between tranquilizing the ego (that's the phrase that was used and it seemed pretty appropriate) and really coming to each moment with a willingness to throw out everything you know and start at zero. It's not that you have to actually throw it out (although maybe for actual Shikantaza sitting practice you do), but I think you have to be able to.

I think that's why this practice is, as Taigu has said (as I seem to recall), that this is a practice of subtraction, not one of addition.

So, is our practice one of ego tranquilizing or Shikantaza? What is your honest assessment of your practice?

Chet

I find this practice a kind of vibrant existential being ... or better, vibrant existential fulfilled LIVING. It does not tranquilize (although sometimes it calms, at times when otherwise the world seems running away into hysteria and confusion and excess right off the cliff). Beyond tranquility, I find how to be thoroughly and vividly immersed in the moment and passions of this life ... love, smiles, tears, loss, celebration, times of boredom, calm or excitement ... all while not being their prisoner or clinging. Yes, there is a Peace that holds it all ... even the anything but peaceful days.

No, Shikantaza is not just some valium for the ego and emotions.

Shikantaza is Liberated Life! :encouragement:

Gassho, Jundo

I am very new to Shikantaza and maybe my opinion is not valid.

All I can say is that (like Jundo says) I feel liberated from a lot of things, even if I am the same guy with the same old attachments and opinions. I am more aware of my own reactions, even if that doesn't mean anything at all.

And at risk of sounding pretentious, I feel I am a less selfish man of what I used to be.

But again, I am very new to Shikantaza.

Need to sit for a few more years to have a better opinion, I guess.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Study and acceptance. I don't believe in tranquilizing the ego. Like Suzuki's cows, give the ego space. It's a part of you, don't hate it. See through it, get to know it intimately, learn to live with it. Our minds are not completely pure. There will be egotistic impulses. No need to fight them or try to tranquilize them. No need to follow them either. See them arise, watch them play, let them go. This is my current practice.

Gassho,
Pontus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Study and acceptance. I don't believe in tranquilizing the ego. Like Suzuki's cows, give the ego space. It's a part of you, don't hate it. See through it, get to know it intimately, learn to live with it. Our minds are not completely pure. There will be egotistic impulses. No need to fight them or try to tranquilize them. No need to follow them either. See them arise, watch them play, let them go. This is my current practice.

Gassho,
Pontus

---

Are egoic impulses impure?

I just don't think Zazen is only for crafting a better personality. That's why I'm always a little suspicious when people say 'Zen helped me ....(anything)'. Not that it doesn't help, but that it isn't for that.

Chet

The name on that pill bottle over on the window sill is my father-in-law's, not mine. We are one, but "he" is
not "me". Sitting this morning there is no "me" and "him", because thought isn't engaged, but when the mail
comes, "me" and "him" are a good idea. It's not like ego is a thing that can be put to sleep. It is an action, a natural
function of social interface. So I sit every day , and thinking... ego, is not so opaque, even in the midst of
function. It can still get pretty opaque and reactive, but a bit less so. So I just keep sitting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

Are egoic impulses impure?

I just don't think Zazen is only for crafting a better personality. That's why I'm always a little suspicious when people say 'Zen helped me ....(anything)'. Not that it doesn't help, but that it isn't for that.

Chet

---

He he. You're right of course. :)

In a sense, egotistic thoughts are impure, in analogy with the mirror that needs to be polished constantly. But originally, where can dust alight? The mirror is always pure. Egotistic thoughts are Buddha nature.

Gassho,
Pontus

I don't know if egoic thougthts are a problem. Believing them? Certainly a problem.

Chet

Exactly. See through them, see them for what they are, and they are nor so problematic anymore.

Gassho,
Pontus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Exactly. See through them, see them for what they are, and they are nor so problematic anymore.

Gassho,
Pontus

---

Right. Who sees through them? You're saying it the only way you can, but it's still not exactly right and as long as you realize it's not exactly right either, then I think Zen is pretty straightforward. Maybe?

Look at a wall. Now look at that which looks at a wall. Now look at that which looks at that which looks at the wall. Now look at........

Chet

I don't know anyone who sees through their egoism all the time. Some people are trapped most of the time and know nothing else. Others know what seeing through their ego, being free, is like, but still get trapped from time to time. I don't really believe in enlightened people. Sometimes sentient beings are Buddha. Sometimes Buddhas are sentient beings.

And I don't claim to be right, just sharing my thoughts! :)

Gassho,
/Pontus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

Look at a wall. Now look at that which looks at a wall. Now look at that which looks at that which looks at the wall. Now look at........

---

I dunno. That just makes me dizzy! ;)
It won't tell me who I am.

Gassho,
Pontus

You ask a lot of questions Chet.

So do I.

Sit.

'nuff said.

Gassho,
Dosho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dosho

Sit.

---

I tried to tell my dog that, but he kept chasing his damn tail! As if it was in his nature! :)

Gassho,
Pontus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

I don't know anyone who sees through their egoism all the time. Some people are trapped most of the time and know nothing else. Others know what seeing through their ego, being free, is like, but still get trapped from time to time. I don't really believe in enlightened people. Sometimes sentient beings are Buddha. Sometimes Buddhas are sentient beings.

And I don't claim to be right, just sharing my thoughts! :)

Gassho,
/Pontus

---

I think it's kind of strange - because if you seek to see through your ego, then that becomes a vocation of.....the ego! That is, you can actually get trapped by trying not to get trapped by ego.

And yet, there seems to be a way of being that is radically different than a pursuit....a sort of 'resting within' or better yet, a 'letting-rest-within' - just straight up natural mind.

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dosho

You ask a lot of questions Chet.

So do I.

Sit.

'nuff said.

Gassho,
Dosho

---

I did sit. Asking isn't a problem. Expecting an answer that isn't 'just this' is a problem. But 'just this' isn't what the answer is either - not exactly.

Gassho.

Chet

Chet, go sew. Everyone, go sew. Sit and sew.

Gassho, J

Just sit. Shikantaza.

But is it sitting and tranquilizing the questioner or sitting and being the questionless question?

I specifically don't mean chasing discursive thought either.

Chet

Sew.

Gassho, J

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

Sew.

Gassho, J

---

Yes ... :)

Gassho
Michael

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

Sew.

Gassho, J

---

Hmmm...Didn't think I'd have to reconsider Jukai, but this exchange makes me think I've made a mistake.

I'll have to let it sit with me a while.....so....

No sewing for now.

Chet

Don't get caught up in mental gymnastics Chet, it doesn't work. Just sit. It does work. The ego can convince us that there are any number of reasons not to sit, or sew stitch by stitch for that matter.
Gassho, Shawn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shawn Hinton

Don't get caught up in mental gymnastics Chet, it doesn't work. Just sit. It does work. The ego can convince us that there are any number of reasons not to sit, or sew stitch by stitch for that matter.
Gassho, Shawn.

---

No doubt it works. So does anesthetic. Is that what is being suggested?

Chet

http://img.tradeindia.com/fp/0/073/503.jpg

Ha! Just realized that none of this matters.

Whaddayaknow?

Chet

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5FLEXB6Dmj...ing+Needle.png

All this tail chasing does no good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amelia

All this tail chasing does no good.

---

Show me. Is it live or is it Memorex?

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

Oh my god, I know what he's talking about now! I didn't realize that the 'short' and 'long' pieces as shown on the rakusu were two pieces of cloth with the 'fold' between them as a bar - I thought there were THREE pieces of cloth there.

Chet

---

http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new/e...ch-800x800.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

the mirror that needs to be polished constantly. But originally, where can dust alight? The mirror is always pure. Egotistic thoughts are Buddha nature.

---

Thank you Pontus...spoke my heart.

Gassho,

Dokan

Ps - Haha Jundo...thanks for making me laugh out loud in the airplane...(Crazy guy in seat 4b). ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shawn Hinton

Don't get caught up in mental gymnastics Chet, it doesn't work. Just sit. It does work. The ego can convince us that there are any number of reasons not to sit, or sew stitch by stitch for that matter.
Gassho, Shawn.

---

So I've been sitting with this for awhile....

I've decided not to believe a single thought for a while...including this one.

Also reconsidering Jukai.

*edited for clarity*

Chet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

So I've been sitting with this for awhile....

I've decided not to believe a single thought for a while...including this one.

---

[monk]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by disastermouse

Also reconsidering Jukai.

---

You take Jukai when you've already arrived at Jukai.
When it feels right in a visceral way.
When there is no consideration.

gassho1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nindo

You take Jukai when you've already arrived at Jukai.
When it feels right in a visceral way.
When there is no consideration.

gassho1

---

Right. Because certainty is the surest sign we're on the right path.

Are you sure we're talking about the same religion?

:D

Chet

Certainty? Who said certainty? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nindo

You take Jukai when you've already arrived at Jukai.
When it feels right in a visceral way.
When there is no consideration.

gassho1

---

Yes, Jukai comes when it feels right.

Thank you, Nindo.

Gassho,

Kyonin