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Almost every day I wake up before my family and make a cup of tea and sit. Inevitably, I have these moments where I start to sleep, and I just catch myself and come back to the present. Some mornings my zazen is just a process of doing this over and over.
Hypothesis: I am just not an early morning meditator.
Experiment: sit midday and see what happens.
Results: now I am crazy sleepy zazen man at Noon!!!
!!!???
Anybody else encounter this problem?
ahaha ...did a lot myself when i started sitting but it went without noticing it
Perhaps adjust your posture? I have had periods where I felt as if I was waking up early and just going through the motions with my meditation. I usually make sure that I am fully woken up, before sitting. Also, an overly darkened room may contribute to the sleepiness in the morning, maybe light a few extra candles.
This could mean you need more sleep at night?
Before sitting check if your position es too comfortable. Sometimes this has happened to me and it's very easy to fall asleep. Also, check your posture because when your back gets too relaxed, sleep will come and get cha!
Also taking a shower helps a lot.
I am an early sitter and I sometimes get very sleepy while on zazen. What I do is just gently go back to meditation. I know it could be hard at first, but in time you'll get comfortable doing that.
Hope this helps
I sit in the afternoon / evenings. I know morning sitting is often touted and has its benefit but sitting is sitting. Run with your experiment and see how it goes - if you're still falling asleep then perhaps another issue is there. Regardless of falling asleep or not, I have to repeatedly check my posture as I am a life long sloucher.
Best wishes... _/_
I always tend to get sleepy after or during my sit, no matter what time of day. I just sit with that. 8)
I'm in the same boat as Amelia. I find that mid-day is the best time to sit for me, with the least drowsiness. Unfortunately, it's not the best time for everyone else in my life. So, I do what I can with evening sits.
gassho,
Shujin
I know it doesn't make much sense, but sometimes when I am feeling sleepy and have that urge to close my eyes, closing my eyes actually makes me less sleepy and puts me in a deeper state.
Not always, though. Every sit is truly different.
I'm always busy in the morning and I'd hate to set the alarm to earlier than 6 am, so I sit in the afternoon or evening. If I sit late in the evening, I can get really sleepy sometimes. Other times, more alert and awake than I could ever be off the Zafu! I often go through phases during Zazen, starting with restlessness and many thoughts and ideas popping up (sympathetic nervous system), proceeding to a kind of middle ground (balanced autonomic nervous system), often progressing into a slightly drowsy half-trance in which I sometimes have to correct my posture (parasympathetic nervous system). This is about 10-15 minutes into sitting. After that, anything can happen! On rare occations, I sort of wake up from drowsiness into being completely awake and calm, aware, not thinking. Most times I get back into the middle ground of thoughts coming and going, sometimes restlessness again and sometimes I just get sleepier and sleeper until I have to get up or fall asleep...
/Pontus
I will throw a spanner in the works: So what? You fall asleep - then sleep. You will wake up eventually. We are not going anywhere. It is not a journey. What’s the concern? I never control my eyes, except for their target which I keep to very rigidly, along with posture. I believe the posture to be of prime importance. If the posture is correct we can fall asleep without losing it. Sometimes my eyes close, at others they open. Some sits will be 50% closed and others 0% . They decide. Well, that’s the way I’m do’n it and see no reason to change. Yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madrone
Cheers
m
Yes, but if you sleep, it's not Zazen. If you aim to sit for 20 minutes and instead doze off or even sleep for 20 minutes, continuing for 20 minutes more may be difficult. But if you can keep the posture for 40 minutes without much difficulty and feel 20 minutes of Zazen after the sleeping part is over is enough, no problem! But in that case I'd rather take a 20 minute power nap before sitting!
I share point of view of Amelia and Shujin.
I think It 's impossible to fall asleep if You' re not exhausted by job, lack of slip, annoying neighbourhood or... saving the World.
Maybe durring Zazen You keep Yours eyes lower than You should - I had that problem often sometime before. If so try, while feeling sleepy, to risem them. But not to much to not look like : :shock:
:)
Gassho
He he, that's what I must have looked like when I had this really vivid visual hallucination a few weeks ago! :D
Yea...I had once vivid visions :roll: when I' ve started meditation in vipassana style some years ago. That was a moment when realised that I' m more interested in reality and that zazen with open eyes (or half open, half close, I should probably say) is more proper for me ( with do all respect for Vipassana guys of course ) :D
Yes, nothing wrong with reality!
I have myself to blame for sitting in darkness... I had just put the kid to bed and was too lazy to take the Zafu with me to another room.
Exactly. Low light is not a good friend for practice either. :)
Gassho
Madrone, maybe try counting the breath with determination and diligence. You may have to build up some energy (joriki) and mental stability before you are ready for shikantaza.
Nothing wrong or "less advanced" with counting the breath zen. If you give your all to it, it's still the same zazen.
Hi Madrone!
I do my zazen at lunch or evening or so, and regardless of rest I found the first few minutes drowsy as my mind/bodies way of trying to get out of it, like the wild fire itch that MUST be scratched only to have it jump and move. I do not brace my feet against it I just notice it and move on...lo and behold! its gone!!
That all said the suggestions above are all very useful, give them a try too. I personally found, lights on, a big help, sometimes a window cracked helps, yeah even in the winter I do that one, and if at all tolerable a bit of coffee/tea if your already yawning.
Gassho
Shohei
Hi,
This is such a perennial question that I will post a couple of older threads with more good advice.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4037
viewtopic.php?p=41954#p41954
Brain waves during Zazen are often in state otherwise found during sleep, or which are similar to brain waves in that peaceful place we encounter right before falling asleep while in bed ...
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3457896
... which is also another reason that we can easily slip over the line into ZZZZZZZZzzzzzz.
In my case, I usually combine sitting when not too exhausted from a strenuous day, sitting after a bit of tea/coffee (in moderation ... Zen monks discovered tea and have never been far from a cup), adjusting my posture and slightly straightening the spine, taking some deep breaths, massaging the face and limbs.
If you do fall asleep, just sleep ... although if it happens too often, or most of the time, it is not good Zazen. Once in awhile is okay.
Here is also something I often post on sleeping. It is important to remember that a monastic setting is like marine "boot camp" quite often, with teachers pushing pushing pushing ... all to realize "nothing to attain". So, some attitudes on Zazen and sleep in the past have been quite extreme.
Quote:
... there are reports from China in the "old days" (and even now) of monks [especially during Sesshin] meditating with just about 3 hours of sleep (or pulling an "all nighter" or two or more). In Dogen's day (sometimes still now), they used a special wooden support called a "Zenpan" to hold the chin up (true), and were actually just sleeping in the Lotus Posture (I have done that too, although it is discouraged these days most times).
"Zenpan" description here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=smNM4E ... en&f=false
Here is one:
http://www.terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/alltamasz.jpg
...
I have posted this from time to time on Zazen and sleep (and becoming sleepy during Zazen) ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Hi all,
I sit early morning every day from 6 -6:30. It helps that I get up, shower and get ready for my day first. But I've also found what really helps is if I do some stretching right before I sit. It is very important for me to stretch my leg muscles because they get very tight and tend to put strain on my spine. So I stretch my hamstrings and quads to get them awake and limber before I put strain on them from sitting. I also do a few sun salutations (yoga stretches) to lenghten my whole spine and neck area. It releases any tension that may have built up in sleep and helps me to stay awake during zazen.
I've also used kinhin during my morning sits, sometimes it helps me to better focus my breathing and prevents the eyes from closing (and also keeps me from tripping and falling on my face:).
The best way for me may not be the best way for you, but I hope you find your way through experimenting.
take care,
Kelly/Jinmei
Wow! Thanks for all of your helpful responses! Keeping with the scientific method approach, I will try each of these suggestions on a separate sit and let you know how things go. If something does not work, I will just experience sleepy zazen when it comes. Maybe I just needed a bit of reassurance that this is normal.
If all else fails I'll pull out the needle (just kidding).
Thank you once again!
Hey all,
Just wanted to follow through on this and let you know that raising my eyes helped, and so did going to bed one hour earlier.
Unfortunately I can't sleep right now, so maybe I'll sit through this insomnia as well.
Have a lovely day.
Madrone.