Great Doubt, or "The Question"

During my involvement here at Treeleaf, I was struck again and again by the strong feeling that for all I liked about Treeleaf, there was some essential difference in my approach to practice and the one taught here that was not a matter of something I was "doing wrong." But up until some months ago - long after my departure as a member of the sangha - I was not able to articulate what that was. My instinctive reaction was that the practice at Treeleaf was "too soft," but I have since come to the conclusion that is not what it was.

It may very well be a softer approach was exactly what I needed at a time so much else around me was hard and unforgiving. But what I realize I was instinctively reacting against was attempts to shut down the process of questioning that brought me to a point of what I would describe as spiritual despair. To me - and to Chet, who served as my guide through the darkness - this point of despair was an opportunity, an opening for further questioning, not an "illness" to be medicated or a place to flee or avoid. And because I was able to embrace and go deeper into the darkness, I ultimately came out freer and more healed than had I tried to turn away from it or let it go.

I know, thankfully, my journey is just that - my journey - and not a way everyone must follow. But what I think was more significant than my affinity for, and willingness to push into, this darkness, was another component of what was going on then - what I have learned to recognize as the Zen virtue of "Great Doubt." I used to feel very confused as to what set "Great Doubt," the virtue, apart from "skeptical doubt," one of the traditional Five Hindrances of Buddhism. I have since learned from my experience that skeptical doubt is more of an automatic resistance to things, a destructive tendency to pick apart and reject even what is good, that bats away and refuses to entertain anything that comes along and does not fit within parameters of what has been determined to be acceptable or true. Whereas Great Doubt is the presence of a question or questions that push us beyond the normal boundaries of our thought processes, beyond the answers that usually comfort and reassure us.

I now like to think of "Great Doubt" as "The Question" - a turn of phrase I picked up from a John Daido Loori talk. Chet likes to use a turn of phrase he said he picked up from Steve Hagen: "the pure interrogative." These phrases point to the part of us that, restless, pushes us deeper into inquiry. The Question is what saves us from inertia, like a golf ball that only rolled half way down the Putt-Putt green and has no additional force to keep it rolling. Daido Roshi said that without this "Question," a spiritual practice is dead. This Question is like a beast that stalks you; it can chase you out of your house and eat all of your money and possessions. When stalked by a Question powerful enough, you can quite easily walk out of your home and walk away from everything you know. This is what the Buddha did.

I have come to see koans as expressions of The Question that were personally meaningful to the ones asking and dealing with them. The traditional questions poised in the classic koans may or may not connect with the forms and phrases that we would use today to express our experiences of The Question. But while I do not formally practice with koans, I can see the value of a practice that keeps the Great Doubt alive and working in you, in which you gulp Mumon's "red hot iron ball that you cannot swallow or spit out."

Being in the midst of "Great Doubt" is unnerving; I have come to believe that much of religion is made of the answers we come up with to reassure ourselves when faced with The Question. But I don't believe our attempts to hold it at bay ever fully resolve it, which is why so often the people we see who insist they have found "The Answer" later reveal themselves to have acted opposite to their expressed convictions, or seem so driven to convince others of their version of the truth.

I wonder if this is where "Western Buddhism" is getting it wrong in general - churning out ream after ream of reassurance, of platitudes and comforting words, when the true way to freedom is stirring up, and making a person confront and inquire into, her own mind, her own doubt, her own Question. I think that the quality of "grit" it takes to face the hordes of Mara is a much underrated virtue in modern, Western Zen.

We all love answers. We love it when someone else seems to offer us one, and perhaps love it even more when we can rattle off a nice sounding answer of our own. But I think this is something Buddhism gives us an opportunity to go beyond, allowing us to see the folly in our hunger for answers to the ultimate questions of life - questions that do not permit us to give an answer without leaping into conjecture, hope, and wishful thinking. Worldly answers are wonderful - they can give us keys for how to live in our world - but spiritual answers often act to kill in us the very thing that draws us to the spiritual path in the first place. The more I live and practice, the more I see that The Question must always be lived; it can never truly be resolved. It is that uneasy fire that makes us come alive in what we do, that makes us truly look at what is before us and wonder.

A teacher once told me that simply sitting in the posture of zazen is the expression of a question. I agree that The Question can come just as much alive in shikantaza as in formal koan practice. But I do not believe this is always the way shikantaza is taught. Sometimes, it is taught in a way that abandons the fire of inquiry and instead settles into passivity. And this is the "flavor" I get here at Treeleaf, where Jundo will offer paragraph after paragraph of lovely explication, with the result of tranquilizing those stalking questions. I have seen little here of the Great Doubt being raised, though it does happen sometimes; yet, when it does happen, it seems it is quickly abandoned.

I have wondered if my thoughts in this area are similar to those that drove some of the raging debates between students of the Rinzai and Soto schools throughout the years, with me leaning more toward the Rinzai point of view. I have found in my own life that habit or routine or gentle faith in the activity of sitting is not enough to sustain my practice - which is just as well, as it is only when I sit with the Question that something is alive on the cushion.

I feel as if this is something I might have posted myself a year ago. However, now I don't feel the same. The difference could be blind acceptance, or it could be increased confidence in the practice taught here. All in all, where I once seemed to have so many words now there don't seem to be as many, but the great doubt still lives. Maybe I am stuck in emptiness. Anyway, good post.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

A teacher once told me that simply sitting in the posture of zazen is the expression of a question. I agree that The Question can come just as much alive in shikantaza as in formal koan practice. But I do not believe this is always the way shikantaza is taught. Sometimes, it is taught in a way that abandons the fire of inquiry and instead settles into passivity. And this is the "flavor" I get here at Treeleaf, where Jundo will offer paragraph after paragraph of lovely explication, with the result of tranquilizing those stalking questions. I have seen little here of the Great Doubt being raised, though it does happen sometimes; yet, when it does happen, it seems it is quickly abandoned.

I have wondered if my thoughts in this area are similar to those that drove some of the raging debates between students of the Rinzai and Soto schools throughout the years, with me leaning more toward the Rinzai point of view. I have found in my own life that habit or routine or gentle faith in the activity of sitting is not enough to sustain my practice - which is just as well, as it is only when I sit with the Question that something is alive on the cushion.

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Hi Steph,

Questions never end. As Taigu sang recently ...

Don't believe you have got it, and it can be spoken about, owned and tagged, put into a treasure box. ...

Questions never end, nor should they end. To be human is to question, seek reasons, trace stories, asks where we came from, how we got here, where we are going, why are things so screwed up, looking for answers to life's sometimes terrible problems ... questioning even why often there are no answers, no way out of the trap. That is good, and separates us from the stones and trees. In our very center there must always be questioning, and an openness to the mystery of whatever life is, why it is so, and what's next. Who are we? Never give up our questioning, curious side ... nor the existential wrestle with life's WHY?

However, there is a difference between being open, alert, alive and questioning, and wallowing in thoughts, fighting with self made ghosts, and wheel spinning fictional questions. That's different from just openness, curiosity, healthy questioning of the simple "what's what and what's next" of life. In fact, the purpose of the "Great Doubt" spoken of by Rinzai Masters is precisely the over-feeding of the mind's games, pushing doubt to such an existential precipice, that it finally falls into itself as "Great Knowing" ... the central questions dropping away, resolved. Rinzai Master Boshan wrote long ago ...

In Zen practice, the essential point is to arouse Doubt. What is this Doubt? For example, when you are born, where do you come from? You cannot help but remain in doubt about this. When you die, where do you go? Again, you cannot help but remain in doubt. Since you cannot pierce this barrier of life-and-death, suddenly the Doubt will coalesce right before your eyes. Try to put it down, you cannot; try to push it away, you cannot. Eventually this Doubt Block will be broken through and you’ll realize what a worthless notion is life-and-death – ha! As the old worthies said: “Great Doubt, Great Awakening; small doubt, small awakening;no doubt, no awakening.”

The Great Doubt must shatter! The point is not to stay twisting and drowning in the mind games of made up questions, tangled thoughts and storms of emotions.

But nor is it to become an unquestioning drone, without thought or curiosity, lobotomized, numb and tranquilized, too passive to rage at the unjust machine! We are about vibrant living! As in so many perspectives of our Zen Way, it is not an "either/or" proposition: For so many questionings and searchings for answers remain, as they should at the heart of this rich human life. Yet, simultaneously, hand-in-hand, as another side of a no sided coin ... all (and that means "ALL!") questions and searching is resolved in wholeness and stillness. Questioning-non-questioning. It is much like a hard climb up a mountain, step by step on the sharp rocks in search of a destination ... where simultaneously each step is total arrival in stillness, no place in need of going. One can have one's questions, drop some, keep others ... and Drop Them All Away at once! It is like being caught in a maze or a trap, no way out, hopeless ... yet finding even the maze AMAZING and the hopeless as Home ... seeing the maze as Wholeness when viewed above.

Our Shikantaza approach is a bit different from the Rinzai hard drive straight into the wall of MU! and such ... for we do not blast the mountain apart with TNT, but stop perfectly still (even as we move) and merge into it's very heart. Shikantaza is thoroughgoing, intense, to the marrow dropping of all searching (even as we search), whereby there can be no thought of doubt even as we doubt. Do we doubt or free ourselves of doubt? NO DOUBT! Sitting itself is Great Doubt Awakening realized, the mystery of the Genjo Koan come to life ... the great constantly answered-unanswered Koan that is right before our eyes.

Who will win the World Series next year? What is God's shoe size? What is the cure for cancer? Not even a Buddha knows for sure. Why do bad things happen, why is life and this world the way it is? Some possible Buddhist answers, yet more questions. But what is the Answer shining in/as/through-and-through all the questions? Buddha (Big "K") Knows.

If it is of help, I just published a little essay that is the mirror image of your question ... about the various flavors of Knowing Not Knowing Knowing in our Way ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...nowing-Knowing

And maybe this talk on sitting with the Interrogative ... Questioning as an Affirmation!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...DO-WHAT-S-WHAT

Gassho, J

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Originally Posted by Jundo

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However, there is a difference between being open, alert, alive and questioning, and wallowing in thoughts, fighting with self made ghosts, and wheel spinning fictional questions. That's different from just openness, curiosity, healthy questioning of the simple "what's what and what's next" of life. In fact, the purpose of the "Great Doubt" spoken of by Rinzai Masters is precisely the over-feeding of the mind's games, pushing doubt to such an existential precipice, that it finally falls into itself as "Great Knowing" ... the central questions dropping away, resolved. Rinzai Master Boshan wrote long ago ...

In Zen practice, the essential point is to arouse Doubt. What is this Doubt? For example, when you are born, where do you come from? You cannot help but remain in doubt about this. When you die, where do you go? Again, you cannot help but remain in doubt. Since you cannot pierce this barrier of life-and-death, suddenly the Doubt will coalesce right before your eyes. Try to put it down, you cannot; try to push it away, you cannot. Eventually this Doubt Block will be broken through and you’ll realize what a worthless notion is life-and-death – ha! As the old worthies said: “Great Doubt, Great Awakening; small doubt, small awakening;no doubt, no awakening.”

.....
Gassho, J

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This reminds me a of clip I viewed a ways back about the Great Doubt in contrast to self-doubt. From what I can tell, Great Doubt is that "what is it?" observation about our practice (our life), or as Stephanie says, "The Question". To me, it is not the beast in my head, but splinter under my fingernail. But I'm not sure it is "THE Question", which if so, could be answered by "THE Answer".

That all said, it seems to speak of the Great Doubt when so much of it involves "I" and talk of you self misses the point. It seems to me that Jundo and Taigu don't shy away from the questions or the answers, but that our practice is not concerned with "What is it?" but as Kuzan Peter Schireson put it aptly on his blog (which helped me think on this), "It is this."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV_jzHoV9kE

Hi Stephanie - thank you for this thread.

I joined Tree leaf nine months ago - and in trying to find my bearings read some of the earlier threads where you had posted. I thought it was a shame that you had left - you raised many interesting, pertinent questions. Please forgive me if I'm misquoting but something that stayed with me was a comment along the lines of 'Tree Leaf is a place where questions come to die'. I thought that was a very powerful statement and whenever I felt niggled - or not quite satisfied with an answer/explanation - this statement would come to the forefront of my mind.

But somehow - perhaps as Amelia has said - this sense of disatisfaction has reduced and I feel differently now.

Now it could be that I've been softened up - anaesthetized in some way - but I honestly don't think so.

Firstly - I don't believe that the virtue of 'Zen Doubt' is the same as existential angst - though we can never escape the 'big' questions of life. I do agree with you that Great doubt may push us beyond the answers that usually comfort and reassure. The big questions are indeed so powerful that we can never adequately answer them with our meagre semantics. This is why I am drawn to this practice as being beyond words and letters - as Jundo often teaches. I do not feel that this teaching is some simplistic, quietism that leads to passivity.

I'm also not sure that we sit 'with' the question. Our living, breathing lives are the question. To think otherwise feels dualistic and doesn't equate with the 'wholeness' that is taught here.

But as you so rightly say - this is your journey.

My journey is definately the better for being here - not necessarily easier - but I am not looking for easier.

Anyway - these are just a few subjective thoughts.

Gassho

Willow

Hogen, thanks for that video. I believe that was Zen Master Bon Soeng of the Kwan Um School.

Stephanie, you may want to check if there are any Kwan Um groups/teachers near you. What is this? Don't know. is a big part of their practice along with koans.

All the teaching styles have at least one thing in common - sitting.

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Originally Posted by willow

I'm also not sure that we sit 'with' the question. Our living, breathing lives are the question. To think otherwise feels dualistic and doesn't equate with the 'wholeness' that is taught here.

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I have long felt this way too ... and though a word is just a word ... and "with" is "are" is "as" ... and "we" precisely "that" .... all simply "sitting" ...

... from henceforth "shall we sit with that", as heard on many a sit-a-long talk, shall be "shall we sit as that" (pardon me if I forget from time to time). We might also say "shall sitting sit with sitting" "shall that sit as us" "shall sitting us as that" "shall sitting that as us" "shall us us as us" "shall that that as that" "shall Jundo Stephanie as Willow" "shall shall as shall" etc. etc. etc. ...

... sitting as/in/beyond/right-thought-and-through that.

Gassho, J

Hi Stephanie!
Nice to see you again! :)

I tried Mumon's "red hot iron ball that you cannot swallow or spit out" when I was younger and first started to practice Zen in some self-taught Rinzai style. I spent years with the damn Mu koan! :D
And I didn't reach any greater understanding. All the red hot iron ball ever gave me was anxiety and frustration. The silver mountain only grew heavier, the iron walls only thicker. Perhaps with a teacher things would have been different, I don't know. But my first real understanding of Mu came after I started practicing Shikantaza. The Question still lives, the Investigation continues.

/Pontus

I don't think she's talking about koan practice. I think she's talking about the questionless question. Hagen calls it the pure interrogative because there is no really accurate English term for it.

Also, in the replies I sense an amazing amount of deflection or not letting what she wrote really penetrate. That is likely the frustration she's talking about. The question need not be uncomfortable, it need not be a 'red hot iron ball'. Overall (and I don't mean to speak for her), it most definitely is not using the practice to comfort oneself. It could be as simple as wondering why you struggle, or who it is that struggles, who is asking the question? At some point, there can be pure interrogative without even subtle senses of self-or-other. It is determination free of goal, a precise arrow-shot without a target.

It's antithetical to the part of you that thinks you grow in the practice, that one gets 'better' at it, or seeks a comfortable proficiency in Zen as though it's any other type of endeavor. It's the doubt about whether you really understand. It's meeting that insecurity with a direct, unencumbered connection to reality without insisting it be a certain way. Most of all, it's looking until you know you're really not shitting yourself.

I've come to the point where I don't think that sort of practice is for everyone. Some people are content with the simple comforts of a Hallmark Card Zen - and that's okay. That's how the religion penetrates the culture.

And yet, there is something unique to Zen that can't be found in most popular religion and for the truly curious, I think it itches like a scar for which you don't remember the original wound. This is the part of Zen (I think) that resists comparison to all other religions. It resists the whitewashing required to make the 'many paths up the mountain' metaphor so common in reconciliatory overtures to inter-faith dialogue.

IMHO, truly no offense is meant.

Chet

Hi Stephanie,

good to hear from you!
I think the questions are here and do get articulated. However, an honest pursuit of any koan-type question, especially real life koans, quickly goes beyond what we can express in words, especially written words without a chance to add our face, hands, tone of voice to what is being said. Speaking strictly for me, Taigu's talks sometimes make me feel very unsettled, like a punch in the hara. Poof, the question is right there: Who am I? To describe that experience would take so many words and still not hit it. So I take it and use it, and that's practice.

I don't feel among tranquilized zen zombies here. I've been part of a brick-and-mortar sangha where I had very little opportunity to even get to know other people because the time together was used for sitting. The energy of the shared sitting was still incredible. That's what I'm looking for in mutual support, and I find it here, too.

I hope you give us another chance. If you don't like the talks, listen to the "ordinary folks". If you need a punch, we can do that, too.

Respectfully,
_/\_ Nindo

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

I don't think she's talking about koan practice. I think she's talking about the questionless question. Hagen calls it the pure interrogative because there is no really accurate English term for it.

Also, in the replies I sense an amazing amount of deflection or not letting what she wrote really penetrate. That is likely the frustration she's talking about. The question need not be uncomfortable, it need not be a 'red hot iron ball'. Overall (and I don't mean to speak for her), it most definitely is not using the practice to comfort oneself. It could be as simple as wondering why you struggle, or who it is that struggles, who is asking the question? At some point, there can be pure interrogative without even subtle senses of self-or-other. It is determination free of goal, a precise arrow-shot without a target.

It's antithetical to the part of you that thinks you grow in the practice, that one gets 'better' at it, or seeks a comfortable proficiency in Zen as though it's any other type of endeavor. It's the doubt about whether you really understand. It's meeting that insecurity with a direct, unencumbered connection to reality without insisting it be a certain way. Most of all, it's looking until you know you're really not shitting yourself.

I've come to the point where I don't think that sort of practice is for everyone. Some people are content with the simple comforts of a Hallmark Card Zen - and that's okay. That's how the religion penetrates the culture.

And yet, there is something unique to Zen that can't be found in most popular religion and for the truly curious, I think it itches like a scar for which you don't remember the original wound. This is the part of Zen (I think) that resists comparison to all other religions. It resists the whitewashing required to make the 'many paths up the mountain' metaphor so common in reconciliatory overtures to inter-faith dialogue.

IMHO, truly no offense is meant.

Chet

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Chet - reading through the replies I can not sense an 'amazing amount of deflection'. This implies an intention to not understand/side step. I think there are honest and heartfelt answers here and in this jumble of words we all do our best to communicate.

I agree that inter-faith dialogue can bring forth many disatisfactions - but whether we like it or not 'the many paths up the mountain' metaphor has to stand. We each choose our own path/journey - and in advancing years I have become less hot headed in thinking any one religion/belief sysytem has the ultimate answer/approach.

We fashion what we may from all that is out there, in the areas of ethics, human relationships and our relationship to our planet - and this human race relies on such reconciliatory overtures in every area of life.

IMHO [gassholook]

Gassho

Willow

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Overall (and I don't mean to speak for her), it most definitely is not using the practice to comfort oneself. It could be as simple as wondering why you struggle, or who it is that struggles, who is asking the question? At some point, there can be pure interrogative without even subtle senses of self-or-other. It is determination free of goal, a precise arrow-shot without a target.

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Yes, but the point is Clarity. Not greeting cards, not tranquilized dullness, not a foresaking of vibrant curiosity and questioning, not numbness ... but Crystal Clarity and Wholeness.

There is no Zen Teacher I know who would say that one should simply allow oneself to spiral into an endless whirlpool of questions, doubts, emotional dramas, self created soap operas, self-psychologizing, angsty existential searching, self-flagelating philosophizing on artificial mysteries. Even if pushed into the whirlpool by this Practice, the point is to arrive at the storm's still still center of Crystal Clarity and Wholeness ... not to wallow drowning in the shit storm.

Anyone who says otherwise seriously misunderstands the point of this Zen enterprise and Buddhism. Some of us have a bit of Crystal Clarity Wholeness amid the chaos of life ... even as we savor the questions and mysteries that this rich life naturally offers in each fresh moment.

Some other folks just like their angst as an anchor to cling to. They don't get their own mental game that they are caught in like a treadmill or a comfortable addiction, or are afraid to see through it. They do not understand this Path, only what they imagine it to be. They simply appear to lack True Clarity and Wholeness.

Gassho, J

PS　- Rich wrote ...

there are any Kwan Um groups/teachers near you. What is this? Don't know. is a big part of their practice along with koans.

The Kwan Um Path is wonderful, but that is a very misleading statement if it implies that the purpose of their path of "Don't Know" is "don't know" and anything but an ultimate arrival at solid, unshakeble "Big Knowing" ... Clear Holy Wholeness. The point of their "Just Don't Know" is NEVER just not knowing.

Don't ya just gotta love it.

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I think the questions are here and do get articulated. However, an honest pursuit of any koan-type question, especially real life koans, quickly goes beyond what we can express in words, especially written words without a chance to add our face, hands, tone of voice to what is being said. Speaking strictly for me, Taigu's talks sometimes make me feel very unsettled, like a punch in the hara. Poof, the question is right there: Who am I? To describe that experience would take so many words and still not hit it. So I take it and use it, and that's practice.

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ditto, like she said, dammit![monk][claps] (thank you Nindo and Jundo )

gassho, 生海 Shokai gassho2

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Also, in the replies I sense an amazing amount of deflection or not letting what she wrote really penetrate. That is likely the frustration she's talking about. The question need not be uncomfortable, it need not be a 'red hot iron ball'. Overall (and I don't mean to speak for her), it most definitely is not using the practice to comfort oneself. It could be as simple as wondering why you struggle, or who it is that struggles, who is asking the question? At some point, there can be pure interrogative without even subtle senses of self-or-other. It is determination free of goal, a precise arrow-shot without a target.


Chet

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with all due respect, exactly what response are we to give when faced with a post which calls what we do "passive" and "soft". My response at least attempts to articulate how I see our approach to zen: sitting with "what it is". So what is it then: us not engaging in the debate or are we simply not responding in the way the poster wishes we did?

As I see it, what "it is" can be the scratch that cannot be itched or the hot ball in the throat or all things in between. Perhaps what we do is not question the why we have the hot iron ball in our throat but to sit with the existence of the iron ball. I will mull over the Youtube vid I posted above again, because I think it speaks about the "Great Doubt" not being "my Great Doubt".

I appreciate Stephanie's posts because they are direct and uncompromising, but I feel as though (especially in light of the thought that we were all deflecting), that its all mental gymnastics fashioned to somehow turn it all into an introspective exercise.

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Yes, but the point is Clarity. Not hallmark, not tranquilized dullness, not a foresaking of vibrant curiosity and questioning, not numbness ... but Crystal Clarity and Wholeness.

There is no Zen Teacher I know who would say that one should simply allow oneself to spiral into an endless whirlpool of questions, doubts, emotional dramas, self created soap operas, self-psychologizing, angsty existential searching, self-flagelating philosophizing on artificial mysteries. Even if pushed into the whirlpool by this Practice, the point is to arrive at the storm's still still center of Crystal Clarity and Wholeness ... not to wallow drowning in the shit storm.

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No one is advocating this view. That's a straw-dog, Jundo. Sometimes one is simply in the shitstorm. Pretending it isn't there is pointless when one is in pain. Leaning into it with curiosity may indeed be the correct medicine.

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Anyone who says otherwise seriously misunderstands the point of this Zen enterprise and Buddhism. Some of us have a bit of Crystal Clarity Wholeness amid the chaos of life ... even as we savor the questions and mysteries that this rich life naturally offers in each fresh moment.

Some other folks just like their angst as an anchor to cling to. They don't get their own mental game that they are caught in like a treadmill or a comfortable addiction, or are afraid to see through it. They do not understand this Path, only what they imagine it to be. They simply appear to lack True Clarity and Wholeness.

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And some other folks never acknowledge the uncomfortableness realness of that angst because it hits too close to home - and acknowledging the realness of that angst in others requires facing it in oneself.

The thing is - in the end, only you can really know whether you're just shitting yourself - and it will manifest in the form of doubt and the cladding of tradition. I, personally, am not accusing Treeleaf of this. This sangha and its teachers have awakened me from deep delusion more than once.

Chet

Hello Chet,

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

No one is advocating this view. That's a straw-dog, Jundo. Sometimes one is simply in the shitstorm. Pretending it isn't there is pointless when one is in pain. Leaning into it with curiosity may indeed be the correct medicine.

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Speaking as someone who has recently been plunged into this proverbial shitstorm, I can say that neither leaning in nor leaning away would be a useful strategy in the slightest. Just standing with eyes open and watching as it thunders and rains and shakes the earth is all there is to do. Jundo's "still still center of Crystal Clarity and Wholeness" is neither a place nor time; it is the simple activity of standing straight with eyes open. For me, the "still center" was and is letting go of my natural inclinations to rage against the storm or try to find shelter.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Chet wrote

And yet, there is something unique to Zen that can't be found in most popular religion and for the truly curious, I think it itches like a scar for which you don't remember the original wound. This is the part of Zen (I think) that resists comparison to all other religions. It resists the whitewashing required to make the 'many paths up the mountain' metaphor so common in reconciliatory overtures to inter-faith dialogue.

I've been thinking some more about this and I can't really agree. To valorize Zen as somehow unique or special seems to miss the point. The itch, the scar, the original wound - is always there. It feels inflated to suggest that only Zennies are in touch with this - experience this. Some individuals experience the depths of life with a curiosity and intensity that simply isn't visible to others.

If those of us here choose to connect with the 'original wound' through Zen - that's fine - but it's incredibly judgemental to assume that others don't experience that sense of aliveness, intuition - call it what you will - just because they follow another practice.

Each to his/her own path - really - I have enough trouble working out where I am with myself in all this without judging the rest of the human race.;)

Gassho

Willow

This has been a really interesting read. Reminds me a lot of the new Leighton book in a lot of ways, where the opening chapter says basically the same thing: that when we sit we sit as a question. Still though, and let’s really cut through the bullshit: part of the reason this post is here is to pass some judgment. Which is fine, we all need critiqued, we all need a push here and there to see some of our own shit, which we typically take for something other than shit. Still, there are a few things I’d like to, uh, question. I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself…okay, I’m done, no more bad jokes.

As long as we’re cutting through the bullshit, it often feels like this post is saying, “I’ve got it, I’ve figured it out, most Western Buddhism/Zen has it wrong and here’s where, and in particular, Treeleaf is too soft and easy and passive.” And maybe so. Who knows. Furthermore, I mean, the entire rhetoric of the post seems delineated upon two lines: those who are doing the wishy-washy hallmark zen (though it may work for them, but they’re still “dead” spiritually, which is most of Treeleaf (these are the implications)) and those who sit at the white hot center of things, with this burning question. Which again is fine, if not somewhat like: so you’re saying you’re doing it right and we’re not. Which, at first I thought, interesting read, but I’ll pass, but then Chet jumped in to say that people are like avoiding the post’s real shit. So, the above then, that’s what I see as the post’s real shit. It’d be one thing to say, “Does anyone else think there needs to be more questioning here at Treeleaf” and kind of explain what the Great Doubt is; it is entirely another thing to say, Treeleaf is passive, most Western Buddhism seems to be, and check out how I’ve got it right. In any case, this is nothing new, either. Slavoj Zizek’s been saying it for years and it might be of interest to some:

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/2/western.php

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2122/

Pretty interesting articles really, and I recommend everybody at Treeleaf read them. And then we lead a revolt against Slavoj. I kid, I kid.

Anyway, I realize this post is a little antagonistic. I certainly don’t mean to be a jerk, only to be honest and share my perception of what this post really feels like (which Hogen also mentioned). I mean, I don’t know you Stephanie and it seems you’ve “found” something really great for you, or whatever (I can never phrase these things well enough, apologies), but the strategies of the post and the overall purposes of it, which seem complex to me, seem suspect and worth raising at least a tiny other perspective. Others are doing this as well, but I really think it's all in how the initial post is written, expressed that has us all going "wha?", you know?

Lastly, here’s a suspicion of my own: while some people at Treeleaf discuss their personal lives, most of us don’t do this very openly (I don’t mean this negatively). I mean, we all kind of use abstracts, to some degree, and it’s rare when any of us really gets into the details, the real details of our lives. Here, we have “darkness” and “angst” and etc, and that’s fitting, because who wants to read a bunch of people’s problems all day long? Further, who wants to read a bunch of stuff about how we’ve all suffered, really suffered, and here are the details of it, and how now we’re in the light, whatever light that might be – frankly, most suffering, unless you’re a really talented writer, is actually pretty banal stuff, and is mainly self-imposed (again, I could very well be wrong here, but that was my experience of “darkness,” years and years of it, and even in the midst of years and years of it, that always nagging thought, feeling, perception: “am I just pretending somehow?”). So, for me anyway, because of the nature of the forum, we don’t all post our Question(s) mainly because they can be pretty personal. Not only that (though almost everyone here is kind beyond kind), I don’t want to bore people with my own little questions which I sit on the cushion with, because we all have them. And the Big Question, the Great Doubt, that’s just the little question, the little doubt in our every day lives (was I a dick today? Did I really say that thing, think that thing? Treat her like that? Act superior like that?) And it’s those little questions that remind us of the Big Questions, those little doubts that remind us of the Great Doubt, and the little are nothing but the Big all along, just another way of playing it. But maybe that’s just me.

Anyway, I also want to say thanks for a compelling read and for knocking us all about some, which I also see as one of the purposes of the post.

-a

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Originally Posted by willow

I agree that inter-faith dialogue can bring forth many disatisfactions - but whether we like it or not 'the many paths up the mountain' metaphor has to stand.

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the biggest of which is when we don't like the answers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by willow

I've been thinking some more about this and I can't really agree. To valorize Zen as somehow unique or special seems to miss the point. The itch, the scar, the original wound - is always there. It feels inflated to suggest that only Zennies are in touch with this - experience this. Some individuals experience the depths of life with a curiosity and intensity that simply isn't visible to others.

If those of us here choose to connect with the 'original wound' through Zen - that's fine - but it's incredibly judgemental to assume that others don't experience that sense of aliveness, intuition - call it what you will - just because they follow another practice.

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The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all attempt to explain that in terms of a self-soul-ego. Even other schools of Buddhism attempt to do this. Zen, more than most other religions, resists the temptation to do this. That is a particular strength, in my opinion, of Zen. This is not to denigrate other religions or paths at all, but to point to something unique about Zen. If you strip from Zen the things that separates it from other paths, what is left of Zen? It's a very strange inclination to do that, I think.

Chet

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Originally Posted by alan.r

This has been a really interesting read. Reminds me a lot of the new Leighton book in a lot of ways, where the opening chapter says basically the same thing: that when we sit we sit as a question. Still though, and let’s really cut through the bullshit: part of the reason this post is here is to pass some judgment. Which is fine, we all need critiqued, we all need a push here and there to see some of our own shit, which we typically take for something other than shit. Still, there are a few things I’d like to, uh, question. I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself…okay, I’m done, no more bad jokes.

As long as we’re cutting through the bullshit, it often feels like this post is saying, “I’ve got it, I’ve figured it out, most Western Buddhism/Zen has it wrong and here’s where, and in particular, Treeleaf is too soft and easy and passive.” And maybe so. Who knows. Furthermore, I mean, the entire rhetoric of the post seems delineated upon two lines: those who are doing the wishy-washy hallmark zen (though it may work for them, but they’re still “dead” spiritually, which is most of Treeleaf (these are the implications)) and those who sit at the white hot center of things, with this burning question. Which again is fine, if not somewhat like: so you’re saying you’re doing it right and we’re not. Which, at first I thought, interesting read, but I’ll pass, but then Chet jumped in to say that people are like avoiding the post’s real shit. So, the above then, that’s what I see as the post’s real shit. It’d be one thing to say, “Does anyone else think there needs to be more questioning here at Treeleaf” and kind of explain what the Great Doubt is; it is entirely another thing to say, Treeleaf is passive, most Western Buddhism seems to be, and check out how I’ve got it right. In any case, this is nothing new, either. Slavoj Zizek’s been saying it for years and it might be of interest to some:

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/2/western.php

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2122/

Pretty interesting articles really, and I recommend everybody at Treeleaf read them. And then we lead a revolt against Slavoj. I kid, I kid.

Anyway, I realize this post is a little antagonistic. I certainly don’t mean to be a jerk, only to be honest and share my perception of what this post really feels like (which Hogen also mentioned). I mean, I don’t know you Stephanie and it seems you’ve “found” something really great for you, or whatever (I can never phrase these things well enough, apologies), but the strategies of the post and the overall purposes of it, which seem complex to me, seem suspect and worth raising at least a tiny other perspective. Others are doing this as well, but I really think it's all in how the initial post is written, expressed that has us all going "wha?", you know?

Lastly, here’s a suspicion of my own: while some people at Treeleaf discuss their personal lives, most of us don’t do this very openly (I don’t mean this negatively). I mean, we all kind of use abstracts, to some degree, and it’s rare when any of us really gets into the details, the real details of our lives. Here, we have “darkness” and “angst” and etc, and that’s fitting, because who wants to read a bunch of people’s problems all day long? Further, who wants to read a bunch of stuff about how we’ve all suffered, really suffered, and here are the details of it, and how now we’re in the light, whatever light that might be – frankly, most suffering, unless you’re a really talented writer, is actually pretty banal stuff, and is mainly self-imposed (again, I could very well be wrong here, but that was my experience of “darkness,” years and years of it, and even in the midst of years and years of it, that always nagging thought, feeling, perception: “am I just pretending somehow?”). So, for me anyway, because of the nature of the forum, we don’t all post our Question(s) mainly because they can be pretty personal. Not only that (though almost everyone here is kind beyond kind), I don’t want to bore people with my own little questions which I sit on the cushion with, because we all have them. And the Big Question, the Great Doubt, that’s just the little question, the little doubt in our every day lives (was I a dick today? Did I really say that thing, think that thing? Treat her like that? Act superior like that?) And it’s those little questions that remind us of the Big Questions, those little doubts that remind us of the Great Doubt, and the little are nothing but the Big all along, just another way of playing it. But maybe that’s just me.

Anyway, I also want to say thanks for a compelling read and for knocking us all about some, which I also see as one of the purposes of the post.

-a

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I think Stephanie was just trying to draw attention to something that she thinks we may be missing. The natural tendency is to be defensive about that, but I think it might be useful to resist that tendency and see what's really behind it.

Treeleaf is my sangha - I find it immensely valuable to practice here.

Gassho,

Chet

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Hello Chet,



Speaking as someone who has recently been plunged into this proverbial shitstorm, I can say that neither leaning in nor leaning away would be a useful strategy in the slightest. Just standing with eyes open and watching as it thunders and rains and shakes the earth is all there is to do. Jundo's "still still center of Crystal Clarity and Wholeness" is neither a place nor time; it is the simple activity of standing straight with eyes open. For me, the "still center" was and is letting go of my natural inclinations to rage against the storm or try to find shelter.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

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Same difference.

Chet

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Same difference.

Chet

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Hello Chet,

Perhaps. When read the post I was replying to, it seemed like you were suggesting that when one is in the midst of a shitstorm, the "correct medicine" would be to actively move further in.

My apologies for any misunderstanding on my part.

Metta and Gassho,

Saijun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

I think Stephanie was just trying to draw attention to something that she thinks we may be missing. The natural tendency is to be defensive about that, but I think it might be useful to resist that tendency and see what's really behind it.

Treeleaf is my sangha - I find it immensely valuable to practice here.

Gassho,

Chet

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No, no, mos def. But, as I probably failed at explaining: it's in the way that the missing thing was brought up, the rhetoric surrounding it, which may be a/the cause for, as you put it, deflection, rather than an invitation to the thing missed.

-a

:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

PS　- Rich wrote ...

there are any Kwan Um groups/teachers near you. What is this? Don't know. is a big part of their practice along with koans.

The Kwan Um Path is wonderful, but that is a very misleading statement if it implies that the purpose of their path of "Don't Know" is "don't know" and anything but an ultimate arrival at solid, unshakeble "Big Knowing" ... Clear Holy Wholeness. The point of their "Just Don't Know" is NEVER just not knowing.

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I don't speak for the Kwan Um School. If you ask What is this? the answer is Don't Know. If this Don't Know is to the marrow then I agree with Big Knowing Clear UNholy Wholeness :)gassho2

If someone is shoveling shit into a big fan, there's no need to stick your head into the resulting shit storm! :D

Sometimes I think you're shoveling shit Chet, no offense meant! :) But I know by now that you mean well and I often find your perspective refreshing.

I think Stephanie is raising an interesting question. But I also agree it could easily be read as "I'm a very spiritual person and most of you spiritually suck!" If you first punch someone in the face, the other person is not likely to listen to what you really have to say! :) I don't think Stephanie intended it to come off that way though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

for the truly curious, I think it itches like a scar for which you don't remember the original wound.

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I like this description very much. The
original wound is sensed sometimes, but it's as if you can't put your finger on it. The best way of investigating the nature of the wound in my experience, is to investigate your self before the wound, your original nature. When you know what it feels like when the wound is instantly healed, the body made whole again, you also recognize the wound.

You could call that which reminds you the itching of a scar, but you could also call it the song of the cuckoo calling you home, or the voice of your heart's innermost desire. It all depends on your view. But the way forward is always the way home, so take it easy and thanks for practicing.

Gassho,
Pontus

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

I think Stephanie is raising an interesting question. But I also agree it could easily be read as "I'm a very spiritual person and most of you spiritually suck!" If you first punch someone in the face, the other person is not likely to listen to what you really have to say! :) I don't think Stephanie intended it to come off that way though.

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I agree with the above, but don't necessarily agree with Chet flinging poo nor do I think Stephanie is really judging anyone but herself.

I do think that it comes down to the question of universal versus personal doubt/conflict/etc. Much of the OP's post reads not that "your spirituality sucks", but that "I have needs that are not being met" which kinda confounds a lot of us (as evidenced by the responses). I don't blame anyone for feeling that way, but as I have read in other treads, we have to meet at least halfway in terms of out efforts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

If someone is shoveling shit into a big fan, there's no need to stick your head into the resulting shit storm! :D

Sometimes I think you're shoveling shit Chet, no offense meant! :) But I know by now that you mean well and I often find your perspective refreshing.

I think Stephanie is raising an interesting question. But I also agree it could easily be read as "I'm a very spiritual person and most of you spiritually suck!" If you first punch someone in the face, the other person is not likely to listen to what you really have to say! :) I don't think Stephanie intended it to come off that way though.



I like this description very much. The
original wound is sensed sometimes, but it's as if you can't put your finger on it. The best way of investigating the nature of the wound in my experience, is to investigate your self before the wound, your original nature. When you know what it feels like when the wound is instantly healed, the body made whole again, you also recognize the wound.

You could call that which reminds you the itching of a scar, but you could also call it the song of the cuckoo calling you home, or the voice of your heart's innermost desire. It all depends on your view. But the way forward is always the way home, so take it easy and thanks for practicing.

Gassho,
Pontus

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I appreciate this post greatly, although it's disconcerting that it still appears I'm flinging shit when I'm trying so hard to be mindful enough to not come across that way.

Chet

Chet,

I agree that Stephanie is trying to draw attention to something she thinks we may be missing. When I came to Treeleaf, and you know this well, I believed I was broken, empty, and less than adequate to being a valuable person...I still think that way, plenty. But studying here at Treeleaf I am slowly learning, with your help, Stephanie's help, and everyone else here that nothing is broken, nothing is inadequate, and nothing is missing. Now, taken to an extreme that could lead to a very large ego and self centeredness...and a belief in mantras or a room full of frames we buy in a gift shop with inspirational quotes from the Buddha or Dogen. But I don't believe I'm likely to forget those feelings since they never really go away. And for folks like me, sitting with the idea that nothing is lacking offers a great freedom, but also a responsibility.

Do not mistake our fellow sangha members saying that they do not agree with Stephanie to be dismissing what she has to say. It may be very profound and if it works for her I am most grateful! But I still see much of the cyclical thinking that Stephanie has always displayed, which she likes to call "Great Doubt", but I think is closer to the skeptical doubt she mentioned in her post. These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

I know you are unlikely to agree with what I have said and offer a defense of Stephanie's post, but I do believe she is well intentioned. But I think her attempt to diagnose what is wrong with Treeleaf blinds her to the fact that she is constantly trying to answer what is wrong with herself. We have gladly taken her in here and asked her several times to go through jukai and fully put herself into what is taught here and actually we have asked the same of you. I truly feel that, until you both do that (assuming there is still a part of you that wants to) you will both be drifting from experience to experience trying to uncover truths that were right in front of you for years.

And, so you know, writing IMHO at the end of the post says to me that you think we don't trust your sincerity and need to create a shield from criticism. We trust you and know your are sincere...but sit, sew a rakusu with us, and take in what there is to be learned here. Many zen practioners go from one tradition to another as they mature...there's no reason you can't have a different way of looking at things. But until you immerse yourselves in that dissatisfaction you feel, I fear you will always be consumed by it.

Gassho,
Dosho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

I think Stephanie was just trying to draw attention to something that she thinks we may be missing. The natural tendency is to be defensive about that, but I think it might be useful to resist that tendency and see what's really behind it.

Treeleaf is my sangha - I find it immensely valuable to practice here.

Gassho,

Chet

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

it's disconcerting that it still appears I'm flinging shit when I'm trying so hard to be mindful enough to not come across that way.

Chet

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Only rarely Chet! :)
9/10 times you succeed, but that isn't as visible as when you slip. I appreciate the hard work I know you put in. So don't worry. There's no shit storm.

/Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

I appreciate this post greatly, although it's disconcerting that it still appears I'm flinging shit when I'm trying so hard to be mindful enough to not come across that way.

Chet

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Hey man, I didn't think you were flinging shit at all. We're all bringing some veiwpoints and we're all trying to cut through the poo, which is collectively ours - and it's on both "sides". So, I'd say it's less shit slinging, then neatly putting it in boxes and saying, "Okay, that's not necessary so let's throw it away now," which is a pretty gross metaphor but whatevs. I guess ultimately we want to stop playing with shit, but you know, better just sit the fuck up then.

Gassho,
a

PS. I'm cursing a lot. Sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Dosho

Chet,

I agree that Stephanie is trying to draw attention to something she thinks we may be missing. When I came to Treeleaf, and you know this well, I believed I was broken, empty, and less than adequate to being a valuable person...I still think that way, plenty. But studying here at Treeleaf I am slowly learning, with your help, Stephanie's help, and everyone else here that nothing is broken, nothing is inadequate, and nothing is missing. Now, taken to an extreme that could lead to a very large ego and self centeredness...and a belief in mantras or a room full of frames we buy in a gift shop with inspirational quotes from the Buddha or Dogen. But I don't believe I'm likely to forget those feelings since they never really go away. And for folks like me, sitting with the idea that nothing is lacking offers a great freedom, but also a responsibility.

Do not mistake our fellow sangha members saying that they do not agree with Stephanie to be dismissing what she has to say. It may be very profound and if it works for her I am most grateful! But I still see much of the cyclical thinking that Stephanie has always displayed, which she likes to call "Great Doubt", but I think is closer to the skeptical doubt she mentioned in her post. These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

I know you are unlikely to agree with what I have said and offer a defense of Stephanie's post, but I do believe she is well intentioned. But I think her attempt to diagnose what is wrong with Treeleaf blinds her to the fact that she is constantly trying to answer what is wrong with herself. We have gladly taken her in here and asked her several times to go through jukai and fully put herself into what is taught here and actually we have asked the same of you. I truly feel that, until you both do that (assuming there is still a part of you that wants to) you will both be drifting from experience to experience trying to uncover truths that were right in front of you for years.

And, so you know, writing IMHO at the end of the post says to me that you think we don't trust your sincerity and need to create a shield from criticism. We trust you and know your are sincere...but sit, sew a rakusu with us, and take in what there is to be learned here. Many zen practioners go from one tradition to another as they mature...there's no reason you can't have a different way of looking at things. But until you immerse yourselves in that dissatisfaction you feel, I fear you will always be consumed by it.

Gassho,
Dosho

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Dosho,

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight. I think that's a very misleading idea. I haven't gone from one tradition to another - I'm just not much of a joiner and I don't know how much institutional Buddhism I want to absorb. I'm not sure I want to be a rebellious outsider either. I'm pretty comfortable with where I am in between these two places. That may change. It may not. I hope you can respect my decision either way, though - and weigh my input without taking my status in the sangha into consideration.

Chet

Chet,

I am in no way suggesting that you are any less of a buddhist if you haven't taken jukai. Jukai is merely a public statement of that which already exists in your heart. So, I would never say or even go near such an assertion. And I was merely suggesting that if you were to take jukai here that it wouldn't mean you couldn't choose in the future to go to another tradition (just in case for some reason that was holding you back from participating with us). I can most certainly respect your decision...I just want to leave you with the possibility that not taking jukai is a sign that you aren't willing to completely trust in what Treeleaf represents or the sangha itself. And I wanted to dispell the idea, which I had no idea if it were true of you, that if you did "jump right in" you also had to swallow the water whole and without any criticism.

Gassho,
Dosho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Dosho,

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight. I think that's a very misleading idea. I haven't gone from one tradition to another - I'm just not much of a joiner and I don't know how much institutional Buddhism I want to absorb. I'm not sure I want to be a rebellious outsider either. I'm pretty comfortable with where I am in between these two places. That may change. It may not. I hope you can respect my decision either way, though - and weigh my input without taking my status in the sangha into consideration.

Chet

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dosho

Chet,

I am in no way suggesting that you are any less of a buddhist if you haven't taken jukai. Jukai is merely a public statement of that which already exists in your heart. So, I would never say or even go near such an assertion. And I was merely suggesting that if you were to take jukai here that it wouldn't mean you couldn't choose in the future to go to another tradition (just in case for some reason that was holding you back from participating with us). I can most certainly respect your decision...I just want to leave you with the possibility that not taking jukai is a sign that you aren't willing to completely trust in what Treeleaf represents or the sangha itself. And I wanted to dispell the idea, which I had no idea if it were true of you, that if you did "jump right in" you also had to swallow the water whole and without any criticism.

Gassho,
Dosho

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Thank you! My reticence has to do with my own personal failures, and not so much the failures of the Sangha. Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

Chet

And if I in any way made you feel outside the sangha I do apologize...for me your status as a member of the sangha goes without saying. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Thank you! My reticence has to do with my own personal failures, and not so much the failures of the Sangha. Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

Chet

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dosho

And if I in any way made you feel outside the sangha I do apologize...for me your status as a member of the sangha goes without saying. :)

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I've come to trust your intentions, Dosho.

I have a burning question.
It’s a question that’s burning,
Burning right through everything I do, say and think.
Right to the bit when it seems to burn out….but doesn’t quite.
It’s always burning.
My life is on fire and all I have is this burning question?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all attempt to explain that in terms of a self-soul-ego. Even other schools of Buddhism attempt to do this. Zen, more than most other religions, resists the temptation to do this. That is a particular strength, in my opinion, of Zen. This is not to denigrate other religions or paths at all, but to point to something unique about Zen. If you strip from Zen the things that separates it from other paths, what is left of Zen? It's a very strange inclination to do that, I think.

Chet

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Chet - I do understand what you say here - and I wouldn't want to strip from Zen the things that separate it from other paths either.

I don't think I'm going to be able to articulate this very well, but part of the process of my being here is that I've become more open to accepting other paths. I don't know where this is leading to - but I feel more able to re-confiigure my religious upbringing and the strong negative prejudices that came from that, in a way that I haven't been able to before.

There are a lot of strands in this thread - but am I right in thinking that the main point is the suggestion that 'something' is not being confronted within the teaching/practice here?

Gassho

Willow

This whole notion of passivity to me seems to be a reflection of looking for things or looking for someone else to push or confront us when no one but ourselves can do the work. Teachers and sangha colleagues are no more, and can be no more than "good friends" who share the path with us and occasionally help us on the way.

Perceived passivity is often boredom looking for an external provocation or sparring partner to relieve the "great doubt" or existential angst that is before one - the external provocation in my mind is sought when there is an absence of "great faith." that certainly has been my case... I often repeat the same old soundtrack or narrative in my life.

So I go looking for my zafu,
and wonder how many minutes of sitting have been occupied by this thread.

I learn a lot from Stephanie and Chet's posts, I'm really glad they are here, and am so grateful for the thoughtful discourse. I do not feel that I can speak as eloquently as my brothers or sisters but felt compelled to pitch in. Thanks for your patience.

Deep bows,
Yugen

Hi All,

It is wonderful to have discussions such as this thread from time to time ... honest questionings, in this case, questioning each other, teachers, our selves, "Zen", about whether we are people who question. [gassholook]

Among so many Wise-Compassionate comments here, I highlight a few ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saijun

... For me, the "still center" was and is letting go of my natural inclinations to rage against the storm or try to find shelter.

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Yes, Shikantaza. The Bodhisattva Virtue of "Equanimity", even as there are simultaneously things to question, scars which ache, and problems to solve. Clarity, both when things are clear or confused. Being in the storm which often knocks us over, resisting and trying to fight the storm, questioning the whys of the storm ... yet simultaneously not any of that in the least, and no storm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan.r

Lastly, here’s a suspicion of my own: while some people at Treeleaf discuss their personal lives, most of us don’t do this very openly (I don’t mean this negatively). I mean, we all kind of use abstracts, to some degree, and it’s rare when any of us really gets into the details, the real details of our lives ...

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Without breaking confidences, people write me privately almost each day about (and many post directly in this Forum and discuss openly too) cancer diagnosis, unbearable depression, scars of violent child abuse in their past, having killed someone years ago, hidden doubts about self worth, struggles with sexuality, shames they have never even told their spouse. The "Zen answer" in all cases has to be ... let it go, let it be. Let the past go, let the future come. Just Sit Now ... even as you sit with/as/through the questions, pain, scars. Moan and cry and question too if you need (we are not cold stones or machines in our neck of the Buddhist woods) ... for to do so is a moaning, crying, questioning Buddha.

Sometimes "let it go, let it be" actually makes the problems vanish:) POOF! Other times, not ... any more than Zazen will fix a bad tooth (you need a dentist for that, or to pull it out yourself, or just live with it), Nonetheless, in all cases the Buddha will still be there to say "let it go, let it be" even as you seek a solution or when there is not solution. For those toothaches or cancers or emotional scars that cannot be healed and remain ... the Buddha will still say "let it go, let it be", even as we moan and cry and question.

It is good and natural ... human ... to constantly question why these things are, why life is the way it is. I do every day. However, we are not "Oprah", and while we face head-on the cancer, depression, child abuse and all the rest ... we Zen folks refuse to wallow in pity parties, self made soap operas, "she said he said" rights and wrong mental debates, whirlpools of thoughts. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between honest/straight on/facing-questioning ... and mental games and wallowing.

The Rinzai folks who push through the questions, the Soto folks who "just sit as" the questions, the Vipassana or Tibetan folks who have various approaches to deconstructing the questions, the Pure Land folks who chant their questions to Amida ... all aim for that Clear, Whole "Just Go, Just Be" amid the shitstorm of Samsara.

When I sit, I sit right in the heart of my questions, and as the questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

The best way of investigating the nature of the wound in my experience, is to investigate your self before the wound, your original nature. When you know what it feels like when the wound is instantly healed, the body made whole again, you also recognize the wound.

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Thank you, Doctor. Sometimes the best way to treat wounds is to open them and clean them out. Sometimes we accept the wounds that cannot be healed. In all cases we see that Original Nature which can never be wounded from the start! But we do -not- pick and scratch with dirty little (mental) fingers, because that keeps the wound alive and red. Zen Practice has tools for all such treatments-non-treatments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dosho

... I still see much of the cyclical thinking ... These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

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This is true for all of us. The toughest thing about this Practice is that people truly don't know how to radically, to the marrow sit still ... yield, put down the search and the questions and the constant need to chase after the next thing and the next, to drop all lack, to stop running after the shiniest new "book of answers" or gadget on Amazon, to stop picking their wounds again and again ...

... thereby to find that Real Treasure here all along.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yugen

This whole notion of passivity to me seems to be a reflection of looking for things or looking for someone else to push or confront us when no one but ourselves can do the work. Teachers and sangha colleagues are no more, and can be no more than "good friends" who share the path with us and occasionally help us on the way.

Perceived passivity is often boredom looking for an external provocation or sparring partner to relieve the "great doubt" or existential angst that is before one - the external provocation in my mind is sought when there is an absence of "great faith." that certainly has been my case... I often repeat the same old soundtrack or narrative in my life.

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gassho2

And one more thing ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Treeleaf is very dear to my heart and as uncommitted as I may seem, it's the only Sangha of which I'd ever say I'm a part.

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Thank you, Chet. Back at ya.

Jukai is not necessary to "be a Buddhist" or "be part of a Sangha", whatever that is. Only embracing and seeking to live by the Buddhist Teachings is what is really required, and joining in the Sangha family in one's heart.

Of course, like someone who just wants to live together for 20 years and not head to the wedding altar ... Is it truly not wanting to be "part of an institution", or just "lack of a willingness to dive in and commit"? Only the person can question that.

Gassho, J

Here, by the way, is typical advice I have offered to victims of child abuse and rape. Even as we "let it be, let it go" and avoid many of the mental traps and snares, it is not some simple numbness or sweeping under the rug ...

-----------------------------------------


I hope that victims of child abuse or rape (the abused child or raped person) can learn to let the past go ... learn to see their abuser as himself a victim (of greed, anger and ignorance) ... move forward so that the violence does not repeat into the next generation. I hope that they come to see the real culprit as "greed, anger and ignorance." HOWEVER, I often also counsel that it is not so easy ... that there are real scars from these events, not all seen on the skin or easily healed. While letting the past go, trying to not fall into new anger ... one must sometimes also see the scar as the scar sometimes, recognize that it is natural to feel anger and resentment at the attacker ... even as one tries to forgive on some level, see the "real evil" on some level, not be trapped by the anger and resentment and let it go.

I have counseled some victims of child abuse, for example, that ... yes ... from one perspective, we need to forgive and let the past go and understand that the person who did this was filled with greed, anger, violence. From another perspective, we also need to recognize that the scars are there, that the person may need to pay a debt for what they have done. Even recognizing our own natural anger at the past is fine ... for it is natural to feel resentment (so long as we do not become its slave). But in any event, the most important thing is not to carry the anger, resentment, abuse etc. into future generations where it will effect our children and coming generations.

Counseling and support groups can greatly aid those who are victims of trauma, hand in hand with Zen practice.

Jundo - and all who have participated in this thread - gassho2

Willow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by willow

Jundo - and all who have participated in this thread - gassho2

Willow

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I agree! I have not said much in this thread, but I have been reading every word that has been said. Thank you ALL for putting it out there. :)

Gassho
Michael

Hitting home. Thank you, Jundo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan.r

Pretty interesting articles really, and I recommend everybody at Treeleaf read them.

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They are interesting. I enjoyed them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan.r

I mean, I don’t know you Stephanie and it seems you’ve “found” something really great for you, or whatever (I can never phrase these things well enough, apologies), but the strategies of the post and the overall purposes of it, which seem complex to me, seem suspect and worth raising at least a tiny other perspective.

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It doesn't seem to me, from reading the post, that Stephanie has found anything, religious or otherwise. I don't mean this to say that she is lacking in anything. I mean this to say that I didn't get that vibe from the post. The vibe I got was that she is caught in some sort of loop of thinking. Apologies if I have missed the mark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan.r

Further, who wants to read a bunch of stuff about how we’ve all suffered, really suffered, and here are the details of it, and how now we’re in the light, whatever light that might be – frankly, most suffering, unless you’re a really talented writer, is actually pretty banal stuff, and is mainly self-imposed (again, I could very well be wrong here, but that was my experience of “darkness,” years and years of it, and even in the midst of years and years of it, that always nagging thought, feeling, perception: “am I just pretending somehow?”).

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I agree. All the years that I felt so different and tortured were really self-inflicted and wrought with narcissism. Yes, I am different from most people, but I don't have to force the point or even really think about it too much. Stephanie, I am in no way trying to imply that you are doing the same. I am merely sharing my experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

The difference is that all other religions offer something to pour into that sense of an original wound. Zen does not do this. In fact, there is no original wound at all, but you don't realize this without confronting the fact that it feels as though there is an original wound - that something is off-kilter. In fact, my understanding is that the literal image of the word 'samsara' is a wheel off true - that is, with the axle incorrectly placed.

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I like that. It makes sense to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

You're flirting with the idea that because Stephanie and I haven't taken Jukai, we are somehow less Buddhist or that our arguments have less weight.

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I know this minor bump was smoothed between you and Dosho, but I would like to mention that I resisted the hell out of Jukai at first-- not to imply that you need to do it-- but then came out better for it. I can't speak for you, but for me, the things I resist the most are usually very good for me. This could be about anything from Jukai to quitting smoking.

Something I find interesting is that Stephanie left us with that post and has not joined in the discussion she started. It is like throwing a word grenade in a room where we all happen to be standing and then running away, leaving us to sort out the details we can't know because we are not her.

Deleted by Jundo

Dear Chet,

I had to delete your post as an invasion of someone's privacy. If the person would like to discuss the topic on their own, that is fine. But you should not.

From time to time (very rarely), it is my responsibility to ask for a medical check if someone wants to participate here because I feel there may be possible risks due to the person's physical or psychological state, fragility, danger to themselves or the like, no different from a gym or swimming school requiring a doctor's note. That was such a case, the person refused to comply and was briefly suspended. At the time, I did not know the person, so did not know how to judge the situation and (in hindsight) was likely overly concerned. However, I don't know for sure what was really going on, could not tell at the time, and that happened 4 years ago. Similar situations have only happened twice (if I recall) all the years this place has been here.

In addition, I have also had to suspend a handful of people for fighting with other Sangha members, or confused or abusive posting and the like. That has happened so rarely these last 5 years that I can count the cases on one hand. We also have an ethics committee in place to oversee these very rare cases now.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...plaint-Box-%29

Chet, are you trying to stir up something again? We've had this before.

Gassho, Jundo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Dear Chet,

I had to delete your post as an invasion of someone's privacy. If the person would like to discuss the topic on their own, that is fine. But you should not.

From time to time (very rarely), it is my responsibility to ask for a medical check if someone wants to participate here because I feel there may be possible risks due to the person's physical or psychological state, fragility, danger to themselves or the like, no different from a gym or swimming school requiring a doctor's note. That was such a case, the person refused to comply and was briefly suspended. At the time, I did not know the person, so did not know how to judge the situation and (in hindsight) was likely overly concerned. However, I don't know for sure what was really going on, could not tell at the time, and that happened 4 years ago. Similar situations have only happened twice (if I recall) all the years this place has been here.

In addition, I have also had to suspend a handful of people for fighting with other Sangha members, or confused or abusive posting and the like. That has happened so rarely these last 5 years that I can count the cases on one hand. We also have an ethics committee in place to oversee these very rare cases now.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...plaint-Box-%29

Chet, are you trying to stir up something again? We've had this before.

Gassho, Jundo

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Jundo,

I'm not trying to stir anything up; in fact, I was trying to veer as far away from value judgements as I could and was just trying to stick to the facts. It's all water under the bridge - I just wanted to catch some people up with some context. People might benefit from some insight as to why Stephanie may appear to have a chip on her shoulder. I also wanted to let people know that I'm very close friends with Stephanie, so that any unconscious biases might be known.

The last thing I want to do is rehash old, ill-considered battles. Talking about that history wasn't an attempt to re-join the battle.

No offense was intended and no blame was placed.

Chet

No one has ever claimed that the way things are done here is for everybody. The ones who find a home in this practice are the ones whose temperament suits this way. Big surprise--a self-selected group. I am often left with the feeling that Stephanie wants everyone else to feel as unsettled as she is here. Some connect, some don't. IT'S NO BIG DEAL. Move on. No great harm has come to anyone here. I simply do not understand the desire to continually chase question after question after question, then wonder why we all don't spend hours discussing the same questions. Seeking begets seeking. Just because "she means well," which I imagine she does, does not mean that her posts are constructive. I find they rarely are. I also will echo and amplify Amelia's words by saying it is rather juvenile to post then bolt.

I'm not for sugar-coated, sycophantic interactions, but neither am I for "let's compare our dukkha" drama. We're ALL fighting a hard battle that we've already won but don't know it. I'm not sure about any extenuating circumstances in Stephanie's or anyone else's life, but again, WE ALL HAVE ISSUES! Maybe hers are big enough that she can't keep a lid on the pressure cooker and the stuff leaks out all the time. If that's the case, then I'm truly sorry for the tone of my post. But her posts scream "me, me, me!"
Again, if there's more to this (and there always is, isn't there?) than I am privy to, I apologize, but collectively we are not therapists nor philosophers.

Eika




Sent from tapatalk

Let's settle, sit ... Metta all around.

If we are described as being tranquil and dropping debates around this community ... now may be a good time to live up to the reputation. ;)

If Stephanie would like to come herself to join the conversation, she is welcome and should. However, we should stop putting words in her mouth about her meaning and thoughts.

Gassho, J

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

If Stephanie would like to come herself to join the conversation, she is welcome and should. However, we should stop putting words in her mouth about her meaning and thoughts.

Gassho, J

---

^^
What he said.

Breathe in, breathe out...

[gassholook]Raf

Back to Great Doubt for a moment. I have been thinking. I think there is Great Doubt in many religions and philosophies. And again, thinking in resonse to Stephanie's post, I think this Great Doubt may come from the fact that there doesn't ever appear to be a final and once-and-for-all-eternity Answer. For example, in Christianity, even Christ, even at death, questioned: "Why has Thou forsaken me?"

I once asked Dosho if he thought that, if you ever actually became enlightened, you could lose that enlightenment? His answer quoted another teacher who said, "Try it and see."

I think maybe in Zen, we re-create the Answer every time we sit, so, thus, there is also always the Great Doubt--as a two sided coin, to borrow one of Jundo's similes. Gassho, Grace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Graceleejenkins

I think maybe in Zen, we re-create the Answer every time we sit, so, thus, there is also always the Great Doubt--as a two sided coin, to borrow one of Jundo's similes. Gassho, Grace.

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That's "Two sides of a no sided coin!" [monk]

Gassho, J

Speaking to the enlightenment question, Hagen likened an enlightened person to a pedestrian. When a person gets into a car or sits down, where did the 'pedestrian' go? That is: Enlightenment is really enlightenment activity (or non-activity).

And yet, the Buddha talked about stream-entry, so surely that must reference an aspect of "I guess I'm well and truly fucked now, better try to get to the other shore!"

Chet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dosho

Chet,

I agree that Stephanie is trying to draw attention to something she thinks we may be missing. When I came to Treeleaf, and you know this well, I believed I was broken, empty, and less than adequate to being a valuable person...I still think that way, plenty. But studying here at Treeleaf I am slowly learning, with your help, Stephanie's help, and everyone else here that nothing is broken, nothing is inadequate, and nothing is missing. Now, taken to an extreme that could lead to a very large ego and self centeredness...and a belief in mantras or a room full of frames we buy in a gift shop with inspirational quotes from the Buddha or Dogen. But I don't believe I'm likely to forget those feelings since they never really go away. And for folks like me, sitting with the idea that nothing is lacking offers a great freedom, but also a responsibility.

Do not mistake our fellow sangha members saying that they do not agree with Stephanie to be dismissing what she has to say. It may be very profound and if it works for her I am most grateful! But I still see much of the cyclical thinking that Stephanie has always displayed, which she likes to call "Great Doubt", but I think is closer to the skeptical doubt she mentioned in her post. These questions will never end because they are designed to open packages, see what's inside, and move on to the next one. Again, and again, and again.

I know you are unlikely to agree with what I have said and offer a defense of Stephanie's post, but I do believe she is well intentioned. But I think her attempt to diagnose what is wrong with Treeleaf blinds her to the fact that she is constantly trying to answer what is wrong with herself. We have gladly taken her in here and asked her several times to go through jukai and fully put herself into what is taught here and actually we have asked the same of you. I truly feel that, until you both do that (assuming there is still a part of you that wants to) you will both be drifting from experience to experience trying to uncover truths that were right in front of you for years.

And, so you know, writing IMHO at the end of the post says to me that you think we don't trust your sincerity and need to create a shield from criticism. We trust you and know your are sincere...but sit, sew a rakusu with us, and take in what there is to be learned here. Many zen practioners go from one tradition to another as they mature...there's no reason you can't have a different way of looking at things. But until you immerse yourselves in that dissatisfaction you feel, I fear you will always be consumed by it.

Gassho,
Dosho

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When I first read here the suggestion of taking jukia, my sarcastic mind said hmmm, so this is what the practice in attaining jukia looks like, hmmm.

Well, this is what I get for dropping a "bomb" like that post and not being able to come back to it for a week! :D

First, I want to clarify a few key points:

1) I do not feel like I have "got it" or like I am more spiritually advanced than others, etc. Far from it! One thing I yearn for is to find others with whom I can share my journey as it is still ongoing, and I find that there is a certain point where I cannot relate even with other Zen Buddhists, depending on their approach to practice. And that is okay! I truly do not believe there is "one true way" for everyone. But I do feel like there is an essential difference between my experience of practice and the one that is expressed by the majority here, and my first post in this thread is how I have learned to articulate that difference. The point is I actually do respect that people are sincerely practicing here - and I like the people here, for the most part. I just don't "fit" into the way of practice here. Again, I see that as okay. The way I see the rivalry between Soto and Rinzai is as a friendly rivalry (whether it was always truly friendly), a pushing back and forth that can benefit people on either side of the rivalry, as no one view or approach could ever completely exhaust or capture "it," whatever "it" is. This brings us to Point #2:

2) I do not identify as a Rinzai Zen Buddhist, nor do I do formal koan practice. Chet hit the nail on the head with his first reply to this thread, that I am trying to drive at something deeper than a particular practice, an attitude or orientation that can infuse either. I find my practice, no matter what I experiment with, always comes back to shikantaza.

3) I tried but do not believe I did an adequate job in my post of delineating between what I see as my own personality quirks and/or weaknesses and the attitude of The Question. Yes, I can obsess, and get angsty; a deep depressive streak has come down to me through the generations. And though I believe that a depressive disposition can lend itself to expressing The Question more freely, and while I embrace who I am without shame, I don't see this personality of mine as in any way essential to this matter. There is no need to be preoccupied with darkness for those who do not feel a natural calling to such. It is just one way of being in a world where there are many ways of being that are not better or worse than each other.

Was I depressed at the time of my heaviest involvement here? I cannot say I was not. Was I in the danger Jundo feared? Not at all, and I would fault Jundo for assuming professional knowledge he does not have as far as all that went, but it is a gentle fault, a presumption with what I suspect was a mix of well-meaning and genuine fear behind it.

But all that is past. What I would emphasize here is the distinction between the dark heart of the depressive in the midst of a depression and the uneasy fire of one consumed by The Question. At the time in question, I was both. And I do believe there is a relationship there, but not an essential one. You can be consumed by a question without any depressed quality to it at all. But there is... an uneasiness. And that is what I find a natural resistance to at Treeleaf - letting uneasiness sit with you for too long. Because, well, it's uncomfortable! But I do think there are virtues in doing so. One is the quality of aliveness, the opposite of "the Soto Zen mellow." While that mellow can be nice, it can also contribute to "blahs" or doldrums. The attitude of The Question is the attitude of the warrior - being invigorated by being in uneasy circumstances. It's like an ignition key.

And I would say from experience that The Question is more of a feeling than anything else. It is not a thought or particular question. So yes, the mind can churn out a lot of garbage while the Question is active. I would never try to claim that every angsty thought that I expressed was profound or true. What I would distinguish is the attitude that carried me forth into my life circumstances, the big oppressive city I found myself in, the losses, the loneliness, the depression - the willingness to turn into all of this, to use it, instead of push it all away. The Question that can ask, "What is all of this?" and sit with it rather than come to a snap judgment that it is good or bad to be in such a place or state. Without the Question, we may flee from the forces amassed on the horizon, rather than charge ahead with our battle cry.

For is that not the fundamental teaching here at Treeleaf - one I embrace and respect - that the field of practice is the field of our entire life and world, that the realm of sambhogakaya Buddhas is the same as the dirty streets of a city full of suffering? New York - and the mind and life circumstances that brought me there - challenged what I wanted to believe about life, people, and the world. It shook my spiritual convictions to the core, and I was left with the ashes of everything I once turned to for reassurance and comfort. And I am grateful I turned into it, looked deeply at it, sat with it, pushed none of it away. Again, the point is - you don't have to go to New York, geographically or metaphorically; what I am encouraging is this turning toward rather than turning away, with the attitude of pushing deeper into the jungles of The Question in whatever form it takes.

4) Finally, I would encourage this turning toward rather than turning away not just in one's own life, but in regard to others. I do not blame people for taking a critical post and responding to it with criticism of me, and I can take the heat. But by pathologizing me, you are also pathologizing anyone else who finds him or herself in a similar place. And just as you are right to remind me I am not better than you, nor are you better or wiser than the person who is depressed or in darkness. We can all learn from each other, and I think we should be wary of judging others who may be in more difficult circumstances than us - internally, externally, or both - as being less than us, flawed, deserving of their circumstances because we see them as having brought those circumstances on themselves. I have to struggle with this almost every day as my job brings me in contact with people I almost instinctively judge - addicts still in the midst of their addiction, people who refuse to take responsibility for themselves, people who are violent, people who use others, and so on. And lately I am realizing - the problem isn't any particular kind of person, it's the human nature we all share. In every person who presents himself or herself in front of us, we see the presentation of something that is in us too. So we can either look more deeply at ourselves, or define what we see as "Other," seeing it as something to be fixed or thrown away. But you can't fix Reality. You can only turn toward it, or away from it.

Thanks Stephanie. Very eloquent. One reason I participate with TreeLeaf is that it is a continuous learning experience from people like yourself. Like you said there is an uneasiness, something missing and we need to face it head on.

Its seems the Great Doubt or The Question is nothing more then, something blown out of proportion by the small mind of an ego creation. It only seems real if we buy into this illusion all filled up with delusion. Seemingly its a lot about nothing, and nothing to great either. If there can be some softening of the arrogance and pettiness of our ego, giving more voice to the intuition, what question can exist...? it just Is. it may be dramatics, attention getting, for the need to control.

Can’t everything be great, esp when capitalized, and 100,000 words follow to make it so? It could be the call for sitting on it, and not any explanation needed. Great Doubt, The Question, The Drama, the unending chasing of the tail !?

Great post, Stephanie. I apologize for my tone in my last post. In haste, I forgot that we all have built in tendencies that determine much of the way we communicate. My wishing that your posts be something other than what they are is my issue, not yours. I'm truly sorry for my attitude. It is rare for me to get huffy about posts, but I had a terrible day at work . . . Not an excuse, but an honest factor.

My best to you.

Eika (Bill)


Sent from tapatalk

Hellos to all posting here!
I have been occupied with too many other things, and time constraints do not permit even a moderate/light participation. But I thought I'd drop by for a visit with long time friends in this practice. I came upon this post and it felt like I'd never left!

One teacher of mine, Rev. Bob McNeil (Matsuoka Roshi, Soto Lineage) used to tell us that 'when the question goes away it is just as satisfying as getting an answer.'

In my limited experience I have found this to be a wise observation. I have shoveled answers at questions, my own and others...it will only stave off the insatiable hunger of the question, the doubt, whatever we want to call it--for so long.

On the other hand, this practice of sitting allows all that stuff percolating in the brain pan, and all that stuff bound in muscular tensions in various parts of the body to settle out somewhat, to settle down. Zazen allows me to 'put my burden down', even if, while sitting, I give it a few more Herculean hefty lifts.

When sitting I observe my body, my mind. I relax the tense body parts as I come across them. I watch the thoughts and try to let the 'thought train' run on through, without 'getting on board the thought train.' Each time I sit there are varying degrees of success at this. Practice after all does mean 'practice.'

Of all human activities I think zazen is a human being's closest cousin to a cat's purr.

'At this very moment, what more need we seek? For this very land is the Land of Lotuses, and this very body is the Body of the Buddha'

I usually just stop at the part of the quote 'At this very moment, what more need I seek?'

Already that says it all to me.

When my mind is unsettled, and won't settle, then it's a loud and jostling train I'm on--and even then, I still can ask 'at this very moment, what more need I seek?'

Up in the threads somewhere Grace asked about enlightenment...I believe it was something to the effect 'does an enlightened person know they're enlightened?

Another teacher (can't remember who just now) explained to us that the first casualty of 'enlightenment' is 'enlightenment' itself! (Now if that don't beat all...)

Liberation, no self, emptiness, no attachment...we use a whole lotta words because we think we are on the outside looking in. My nose pressed against this glass I have handblown and installed myself--I see what look like ordinary people sweeping, taking out trash, hanging up laundry, drinking tea and washing their bowls.
Indeed, when I am engaged in similar activities of daily life, I have joined them...has the questioner or the question disappeared? These two hands fish a wandering spider out of the sink with the dish towel and return from a green leafy world to the world of soap and water, white porcelain and Formica...these two hands rejoin the soapy water ...

I am very grateful to have this practice in my life and to have sangha to share it with and senior practioners and teachers and newcomers. I don't know what I would have done without it, it is for life, for the rest of my life...
Only my practice is my practice, no one else can do it for me...
my practice suits me perfectly: it is tailor made for me--like my very own skin.

Another teacher would say--'knowing is intimate, not knowing--more intimate still.'

These days I am full of gratitude and my eyes find themselves full of tear, but not sad ones...

I am ready to leave buddhism, to leave the rakusu, the mala, and all, but I cannot, others who are seeking blindly for something and finding this practice need these traces of things and other some such and so I assist weekly with a Ch'an meditation group, and that's where I've been spending my time....

I like to keep answers short--25 words, double that maybe, but I am endulging myself and making up for lost time...as I can see here everyone is well and thriving--bueno! and gassho!

In gratitude to all teachers past, present and future,
keishin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

That's "Two sides of a no sided coin!" [monk]

Gassho, J

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:D Gassho, Grace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keishin

I usually just stop at the part of the quote 'At this very moment, what more need I seek?'

Already that says it all to me.

When my mind is unsettled, and won't settle, then it's a loud and jostling train I'm on--and even then, I still can ask 'at this very moment, what more need I seek?'

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The essence of the way-seeking mind, that mind that cultivates great care. Whether peaceful or uncomfortable, great care for all things. In defilement and also free from defilement.

Thanks so much for this post, Keishin.

Gassho,
alan

Keishin, it is always good to hear from you.

Gassho


Shugen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

New York - and the mind and life circumstances that brought me there - challenged what I wanted to believe about life, people, and the world. It shook my spiritual convictions to the core, and I was left with the ashes of everything I once turned to for reassurance and comfort.

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Stephanie, I cannot imagine a better description of Great Doubt than this. I hope you can bring your experiences to the forum once more and encourage others to share their unsettledness, too.

Galen, before you dismiss Great Doubt, you may want to read more about the three pillars of Zen: great doubt, great faith, great determination.

Keishin - thank you for this post.

Gassho

Willow

Stephanie - it was good to read your post. I may not necessarily agree with everything
you write but thoughts that make me reflect are always welcome.
I would also agree that there is from time to time here a 'mixed' message regarding the degree of faith/doubt involved in practice.
I still haven't worked out if this is specific to Soto Zen.
I am learning and challenging my views on this all the time.

And sometimes it's just good to 'sit' with all there is and not challenge at all.

Gassho

Willow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

The Question that can ask, "What is all of this?" and sit with it rather than come to a snap judgment that it is good or bad to be in such a place or state. Without the Question, we may flee from the forces amassed on the horizon, rather than charge ahead with our battle cry.

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Hi again Stephanie! :)

I'm not trying to pathologize you, but I do believe that the reason for your feeling uneasy/uncomfortable is to be found inside your own mind, more than externally, as an inherent quality of Treeleaf. Like most things, Treeleaf is perfectly imperfect. So instead of finding faults with Treeleaf, I would look inside and ask myself where this feeling is coming from. In the part I quoted above you say ask, "What is all of this?" and sit with it rather than come to a snap judgment that it is good or bad to be in such a place or state. I wholeheartedly agree. Sometimes we may ride the jade elephant backwards, confidently adapting to life as it evolves.

There are some practices at Treeleaf that don't particularly ring my bell and there have been things said and done that have sometimes disappointed me, but I honestly don't feel that uneasiness you're describing. It's your feeling, an emotion that should be taken seriously, but not a fact. I love this place, its teachers, members and the approach to practice. I'm very comfortable here and there's no place I'd rather be.

I also don't think it's necessary to be consumed by the Question at all times, feeling as if your hair is on fire, like you have a red hot iron ball in your throat that you can't swallow or spit out. That's warrior Zen and I'm a farmer at heart! :)
A simple awareness/mindfulness/unyielding curiosity of the Question is just as OK (and would probably lead to less stomach ulcers!) It doesn't mean you are taking practice less seriously. It could mean you take your self less seriously... ;)

Gassho,
Pontus

Pontus, not only are you deflecting, but you're doing it very passive aggressively. No one is taking themselves so un-seriously as to refrain from comment, but your comments are as consumed with self-importance as any other thus far. Pretending otherwise seems curiously unconscious. Such unconsciousness, cute as it may sound in your head, disqualifies your comments from being seen in a genuine light. It's not that you don't have a legitimate point, it's the inability to drop that very legitimate point for long enough to consider another.

All the most powerful lessons I've learned on this path have come when I've taken criticism to heart and have had to acknowledge those parts of it that I'd rather not see. I don't know if that's universal, but I know it makes it very hard for me to relate to your post.

I think that a more proper description of what this Great Doubt looks like in practice might go further toward bridging the gap.


Chet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

Pontus, not only are you deflecting, but you're doing it very passive aggressively.

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Hmm... OK. Just trying to be helpful. If it's not and I'm perceived as being passive aggressive, then I apologize. I sure don't feel any aggression towards Stephanie. And I have just as many faults as the next person.

Gassho,
Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

your comments are as consumed with self-importance as any other thus far

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Anecdote:
A couple of weeks before starting my job in anesthesiology and intensive care, I was sitting around a table with some of my old colleages and the wife of one of the anesthesiology guys. I told her I was going to work with her husband and she said: "So you're going to work with that cocky bastard (her husband) and the rest of the cocky bastards!". "Yes, so it's a good thing I'm not so cocky." I said. *silence* "I'm not, am I..?" I said and looked at my former colleages. *silence* (moment of insight). :D

/Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keishin

Of all human activities I think zazen is a human being's closest cousin to a cat's purr.

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Hello Keishin! Good to see you! :)
Thank you for this post, full of wisdom as always!

Gassho,
Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

... A simple awareness/mindfulness/unyielding curiosity of the Question is just as OK (and would probably lead to less stomach ulcers!) It doesn't mean you are taking practice less seriously. It could mean you take your self less seriously... ;) ...

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Thank you Pontus, I too like this approach. :) This may be a bit of topic, but I will throw it out there. My brother loves golf and loves to play got with me ... me, I am not a huge golf fan, but love the fact I get to spend time with my brother. But funny creatures we are even though I am not a fan of the game and do not play it unless it is with my brother, I still get frustrated with it when I don't do well. Then I thought, "what am I doing"? Why am I getting frustrated? I don't play this game, so why would I be any good at it, or expect that I would be any good at it.

I found doing this questioning from the mind of what Pontus calls the "Zen Farmer" and not the "Zen Warrior" ... this worked great as it allowed me not to be so SERIOUS, to see that I am perfectly imperfect and consistently inconsistent when it comes to the game of golf. Now with the game of golf, I can just be with my brother and enjoy the time ... as it it. :)

Gassho
Michael

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nindo

Stephanie, I cannot imagine a better description of Great Doubt than this. I hope you can bring your experiences to the forum once more and encourage others to share their unsettledness, too.

Galen, before you dismiss Great Doubt, you may want to read more about the three pillars of Zen: great doubt, great faith, great determination.

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Thank you, Nindo. I have read it, tremendous read, and will again. With that said, it could also miss the point of my post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nindo

Galen, before you dismiss Great Doubt, you may want to read more about the three pillars of Zen: great doubt, great faith, great determination.

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Hi Nindo,

If you are referring to the book entitled "Three Pillars of Zen", I have written a few times that I do not particularly recommend it for us "Zen Farmers", although it might be good for the "warriors" :). Here's what I usually say about the book ...

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The book presented a view of "Kensho or Bust" that was very much present in corners of western Zen at one time, and has since come in for a large measure of criticism in many parts of the Zen world. I was recently reading a good book on the subject, and the culture surrounding the book in the 1960's. Here is a review of that other book, called "Zen Teaching, Zen Practice: Philip Kapleau and The Three Pillars of Zen" edited by Kenneth Kraft, a long time student of Kapleau Roshi ...

Quote:

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Kraft points out that Kapleau’s book is “in large measure a book about kensho” (p.14) which in itself is problematic as for many, including some of the authors of the essays, this led to “inflated expectations… [and] [t]he discrepancy between anticipatory visions of enlightenment and actual experiences of insight”. (p.15) This disjuncture between what Kapleau wrote and the actual experiences of Zen students has led to some criticisms of The Three Pillars of Zen as a book that gives an unrealistic picture of what to expect from zazen. ...

While this emphasis on and almost inevitability of kensho is, I think, a fair criticism of The Three Pillars of Zen, there is little doubt that Kapleau’s book brought many people to the study and practice of Zen Buddhism and for that we should be grateful. It is also necessary that we understand where and how Kapleau learned his Zen practice to better understand why he wrote and taught the way he did.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookRev...enpractice.htm

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I am not being critical, and it is simply that our Soto way is different (same ... but different). I primarily provide this information because folks should know that there are very different approaches to Zen and Zazen, and not all "Zen" is of the same flavor (different ... but the same). Thus, folks go to the book store and pick up a "Zen" book, or listen to a talk, and wonder why the contents seem so different sometimes (same ... but different :D ) The following is an good background ...

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As I have mentioned a few times, there is a relatively recent line that popped up within Soto-shu that actually is a hybrid with Rinzai Zen (their priests are also Rinzai priests) and, more importantly, largely split off from both to form an organization called Sanbokyodan. Those within the lineage that did not split from Soto are rather a breed all their own within it. That line is much much more influential outside Japan than in Japan, because it happens to be the source of such lineages as the Diamond Sangha (Aitken Roshi), Rochester Zen Center (Kapleau Roshi) and the White Plum (Maezumi Roshi). While the Sanbokyodan portion left Soto-shu, some of their people stayed within Soto-shu in name (including the priest who established the two temples you mention (Toshoji and Kannonji).

Quote:

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The Sanbôkyôdan (Three Treasures Association) is a contemporary Zen movement that was founded by Yasutani Hakuun (1885-1973) in 1954. The style of Zen propagated by Sanbôkyôdan teachers, noteworthy for its single-minded emphasis on the experience of kenshô, diverges markedly from more traditional models found in Sôtô, Rinzai, or Oobaku training halls. ... There is little in Kapleau's book to suggest that his teachers were anything but respected members of orthodox Zen monastic orders. Yet such was not the case, for in 1954 Yasutani Hakuun (1885-1973), the Zen priest whose teachings are featured in The Three Pillars of Zen, severed his formal ties to the Sôtô school in order to establish an independent Zen organization called the Sanbôkyôdan, or "Three Treasures Association." The influence exerted by this contemporary lay reform movement on American Zen is out of proportion to its relatively marginal status in Japan: modern Rinzai and Sôtô monks are generally unaware of, or indifferent to, the polemical attacks that Yasutani and his followers direct against the Zen priesthood. Orthodox priests are similarly unmoved by claims to the effect that the Sanbôkyôdan alone preserves the authentic teachings of Zen. ...

The only acceptable "solution" to the mu kôan in the Sanbôkyôdan is a credible report of a kenshô experience, and beginning students are subject to intense pressure during sesshin -- including the generous application of the "warning stick" (kyôsaku or keisaku) -- in order to expedite this experience. The unrelenting emphasis on kenshô and the vigorous tactics used to bring it about constitute the single most distinctive (and controversial) feature of the Sanbôkyôdan method. Eido Shimano, recalling Yasutani's first sesshin in Hawaii in 1962, writes:

The night before sesshin started, Yasutani Roshi said to the participants, "To experience kensho is crucial, but we are so lazy. Therefore, during sesshin we have to set up a special atmosphere so that all participants can go straight ahead toward the goal. First, absolute silence should be observed. Second, you must not look around. Third, forget about the usual courtesies and etiquette" . . . He also told the participants, and later told me privately as well, of the need for frequent use of the keisaku. That five-day sesshin was as hysterical as it was historical. It ended with what Yasutani Roshi considered five kenshô experiences.
(Nyogen et al. 1976, pp. 184-85)[28]

While Yasutani's successors are considerably more reserved in their use of the kyôsaku, the emphasis on kenshô has not diminished, prompting one student of Yamada to refer to the San'un Zendô as a "kenshô machine" (Levine 1992, p. 72).
Students who do succeed in passing mu, along with a number of kôans used specifically to test the veracity of the experience (such as the "sound of one hand"), are publicly recognized
...

The rôshi will remind the student, both in private interviews and in public talks, that kenshô is only the first small step along the path to full awakening. Be that as it may, the Sanbôkyôdan treats kenshô as a significant achievement. Upon attaining kenshô students are publicly lauded in the jahai ceremony, and encouraged to write a report of their experience for publication in Kyôshô. The names of post-kenshô students are clearly marked with a circle on sesshin seating plans, and as mentioned above, a second zendô may be provided allowing the post-kenshô group to practice apart from the others. Finally, pre- and post-kenshô students are often listed separately in the sesshin reports that appear in Kyôshô. (Note that each of these practices are Sanbôkyôdan innovations -- there are no public rites of passage marking the attainment of kenshô in Sôtô or Rinzai monasteries.)

Following the teacher's authentication of kenshô, Sanbôkyôdan students move through a program of 600 to 700 kôans following a format set by Harada based in part on traditional Rinzai models. The practitioner first tackles the "miscellaneous kôans," which consist of approximately twenty-two kôans in fifty-seven parts. He or she then moves through the Mumonkan, Hekiganroku, Shôyôroku, and Denkôroku [?MÆ] kôans, followed by Tôzan's five ranks (Tôzan goi), and three sets of precepts.[30]

Whereas passage through mu requires nothing short of kenshô, passage through the remaining kôans is relatively straightforward. After formally approaching and bowing to the rôshi the Sanbôkyôdan student recites his or her kôan, and then presents (or "demonstrates") his or her understanding. If the answer is deemed satisfactory, the teacher himself may supply a more "traditional" response. All of this is more-or-less typical of Rinzai practice today. However, Sanbôkyôdan teachers do not use jakugo (capping phrases) -- set phrases culled from classical Chinese literature used to test and refine a monk's understanding of a kôan.[31] Moreover, unlike Rinzai monks, Sanbôkyôdan practitioners are not required to compose written expositions of the kôans in the latter stages of their training.[32] The Sanbôkyôdan has, in short, sharply curtailed the explicitly "literary" aspects of kôan training.

As a result, once they have passed mu Sanbôkyôdan students tend to move through the remaining kôans at a relatively rapid pace, often completing one kôan per interview. With regular access to a teacher and frequent participation in sesshin, a practitioner can complete the entire course of post-kenshô kôans in approximately five years. At the same time, if the rôshi feels that there are inadequacies in the student's training, he may reassign certain kôans in dokusan (including mu), and Yamada led periodic study groups (kenshukai) for advanced students in which he reviewed the kôans in a more seminar-like setting.

Once the kôans are complete, students proceed through a series of higher certifications that allow them to teach and may eventually result in Dharma transmission. There is considerable ambiguity in this regard, however, in part because the Sanbôkyôdan draws simultaneously from Sôtô and Rinzai conceptions of transmission -- conceptions that are not always compatible with one another. This is responsible in part for the controversy over the teaching authority of Yamada's senior disciples that emerged following his death, an issue to which I will return below.


http://buddhiststudies.berkeley.edu/...anbokyodan.pdf

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Since the 1960's, I have the feeling (as an outsider) that they have generally softened or moved on from the "Kensho or Bust" and hard approach of the Harada-Yasutani tradition somewhat.

In fact, for all traditions ... Soto, Rinzai and the hybrids ... awakening and "seeing one's True Nature" are vital, but all one aspect of an ongoing practice of polishing the timeless jewel that needs no polishing (i.e., it is not "Kensho and that's the end" ... rather, all is always just the beginning). In all traditions, no matter how much they emphasize or deemphasize the "push" for "timeless Kensho moments", the bottom line is ... See one's True Nature (Kensho), and move on.

On Kapleau, a local newspaper did an article about his center (Rochester Zen Center) which is near to where I live. It was mostly case studies of local buddhists and in the almost all of them the person had started at RZC and ended up moving to different type of practice after a few years. That isn't meant to indite Kapleau or his center, but the fact that RZC folks had spread out into the other buddhist centers and temples was interesting. It definitely wasn't the flavor for me and I was glad to find the approach he at Treeleaf which, obviously, resonates with me. Different roads up the mountain indeed.

Gassho,
Dosho

Jundo.... I thought before I had joined these forums to post, I was just observing at the time, that I had read something to this idea you did not approve of this book. I had been visiting the site www.zenguide.com (I no longer visit, Chon Tri has been gone for quite some time, last I checked, and it seems a little weird now) at the time, and even though I read much Buddhism over the years, was all of a sudden interested in Zen. So at the time I had asked Chon Tri on that site, what books would he recommend and he said ZMBM by Suzuki and TPZ by Kaplin. So when I had seen you post this none approval, I had not actually read TPZ yet, was just finishing ZMBM, but was some what taken back. So I sat on that for a while and then thought, well I will read it for myself and decide what it had for me. I have read many depth books over 40 some years, and maybe the timing hit me just right as Zen beginner, but it knocked my socks off, blew me away. I loved its historical sense of the two main Japanese Zen sects. It mentions Dogen a lot, Shikantaza throughout, but most of all I really enjoyed ‘real’ writing exchanges between Westerner Zen students and Yasutani-Roshi. And also the real letters exchanged between students and Bassui, and the enlightenment path of a long exchange by a bed ridden young women and Yaeko Iwasaki, brilliant!

So after reading it and thinking it was pretty profound, and was confused why any student of Zen would not read it, esp if they were from the West, I could only come to one conclusion why this site is against such, and I think there is only a couple paragraphs that warn of newer Zen teachings and not to trust all Priests. But that did not stop me from being even more interested in Treeleaf instead of less, or any lesser of you or Taigu. I realize here you are making the case for its different case studies for Kensho and the more forceful way to enlightenment, as I like to characterize it, the path to enlightenment, or Kensho, done on steroids (its real cool for those who choose this very robust path, and cool to read and witness as a reader). But still do not get some of your fear about that for new students. You guys do a great job here, even if I have contested some, on making your case for this Dogenized Soto Zen. I feel that to take such a hard line against this book, when not leaving it to the reader as just a historical look on Zen tradition, and not letting things fall as they may, is an injustice, and still do not get your paranoia around this very insightful read, other then those couple paragraphs that could relate to you and this site of the chance of some charlatanism. If what you bring to fore stands up on its own to feet, then so be it. Your stance kind of reminds of the take Mormonism takes on their teachers, and thus students, at BYU; if read, write books and transcripts or stand for something outside their doctrine (no opens minds in this church, don’t go there) you are excommunicated or treated very harshly in public. That is fear and paranoia on steroids, and why many look at it as shallow cult.

I apologize to all in this forum and this site, for my on going poor phrasing and sometimes poor spelling. My old shoolism. just missed most the english part :)!

Tricky thread.

The whole subject of Great Doubt and Kensho, has changed a lot for me. I understood it as cornering your self absolutely, completely, until trapped in impossibility, you die, .....and that has happened on the cushion.. but then ...presto!, born again. Maybe that is not “great death” but I have yet to meet another human being who is not always being born again.

Another way of looking at doubt involved realizing that the problem was not a fundamental existential question, or mystery.... “mystery” is a mcguffin. The problem is the basic feeling of incompleteness holding sway. Existential doubt and mystery are just a mental production of that basic feeling, and that is basically the First, Second and Third Noble Truths. Looking at Doubt means looking at the feeling, the very basic sense of incompleteness, being it unconditionally. Then the feeling , the doubt, the question, the answer, the mystery,... all of it .....is resolved. Not answered, just resolved, like a knot, in just sitting. Doubt is done...when reaching is done.

Also , the “kapow!” one time Big Enlightenement idea is I believe a matter of framing. Practice has no end, and no final state, that much is clear to me. Practice goes on, and there are plenty of “Ah” moments, some big some small.

This is my honest experience and view.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kojip

Another way of looking at doubt involved realizing that the problem was not a fundamental existential question, or mystery.... “mystery” is a mcguffin. The problem is the basic feeling of incompleteness holding sway. Existential doubt and mystery are just a mental production of that basic feeling, and that is basically the First, Second and Third Noble Truths. Looking at Doubt means looking at the feeling, the very basic sense of incompleteness, being it unconditionally. Then the feeling , the doubt, the question, the answer, the mystery,... all of it .....is resolved. Not answered, just resolved, like a knot, in just sitting. Doubt is done...when reaching is done.

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Honest and insightful as always. Thank you Kojip, I loved reading that.

Gassho,
Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Honest and insightful as always. Thank you Kojip, I loved reading that.

Gassho,
Pontus

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Me too. Right on, Kojip. Though, maybe not the mystery part. But everything else. I think mystery is kind of like awe, or, I don't know. I'll let Cormac say it:

"Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. You could see them standing in the amber current where the white edges of their fins wimpled softly in the flow. They smelled of moss in your hand. Polished and muscular and torsional. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery."

After searching 3PZ that Nindo referenced for `the question or great doubt, i went to their index, and their vocabulary and Buddhist doctrine section (which is very good) and all i could come up with (i am sure it appears else where, as Stephanie can point out) was The Great Question, referred to a priest student who was having trouble with kensho in using koan MO. As it appears here `the great question is used to get away from MO (when that is not working for the student) to a different context of asking the question Who am I, What am I, or What is it that hears (or who). It seems all these `great this and that, point to the Great Way or the Way of the Buddha..... or in easier and simpler terms, our true nature. It seems they wanted the student to stay totally in that realm in zazen 24/7 until this could be more resolved. I used some of these for some period of time and they are helpful keeping present and asking, who is present here (small mind or Big Mind), but most significant while sitting, and not, and sitting again and again..... It was helpful through out my day to keep me reminded where and who I `really Am, but i realize here that Jundo and Taigo would look at this as a goal and unnecessary and i can also understand that more and more.

As Kojip seems to point to, its not some existential outer thing (of course) or some metaphysical concept needing to be grasped, its just our true nature/Buddha nature. So simple, but we seem to make it so hard with all the brain farts and letting the ego do its thing in its small mindedness that keeps us all stuck.

[monk]much to learn you still have, young Padawan :D Great story bro.

gassho1
Raf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Anecdote:
A couple of weeks before starting my job in anesthesiology and intensive care, I was sitting around a table with some of my old colleages and the wife of one of the anesthesiology guys. I told her I was going to work with her husband and she said: "So you're going to work with that cocky bastard (her husband) and the rest of the cocky bastards!". "Yes, so it's a good thing I'm not so cocky." I said. *silence* "I'm not, am I..?" I said and looked at my former colleages. *silence* (moment of insight). :D

/Pontus

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Who said anything about doubt as a means to an end - spiritual TNT for permanently blasting something apart?

And are there only the extremes of pressured, tense, explosive doubt and relaxed, mellow abiding?

There is a difference between a steady fire and a sudden, passing combustion.

Great Doubt has manifested in my life not in the form of some choreographed practice, but as a kind of energy, a humming wire, an unresolved chord... it is not an unpleasant angst, or a self-willed contraction. Quite the opposite... it is enlivening, a creative tension that keeps my practice going. Far from something that can be mastered, it, like love, is something that comes unbidden when the world has gone dark, when the trail has gone cold, to show me the way.

If anything, I have less of it now than I did before, and I want it to come back as I look for renewed inspiration in my practice. The problem for me is that, precisely as some folks here have described, many of my old questions have been answered or have simply faded away. And I have realized: I cannot manufacture new questions. I cannot manufacture the buzzing energy that sent me along my way in my college years. But I can connect to the embers still smoldering in my heart. I can ask, What is this? I can even ask, What is the question? The point is that questions that capture the energy of this Doubt cannot be answered or resolved. They change your attention, they invigorate the drowsy mind, they quiet the noise in the mind of that which is not keyed in to the very heart of this existence. They are like a musical phrase that at once seems to indicate exactly what is going on and to make everything more unfamiliar and mysterious.

Love and The Question connect me with what cannot die or be lost when the changes and losses of life leave a cold void in their wake. Just when I feel like my spirit has become frozen in ice, a Question comes along, or Love throws a line, and something stirs. When the path seems to have stopped, suddenly two trees appear with a gap between them, and there is a way to keep following.

In the Soto way, in Dogen's way, there is no end point to practice, not even temporarily. The blue mountains are walking. How can you get to the top of a mountain that is moving? You can try to hold on, I suppose; try not to get swept away in the river of loss, try to shield the tree from the autumn wind so the leaves will not fall. Yes, there is a stillness that pervades even the most chaotic environment, but we cannot stay in it. Even if we could find a perfectly still, unchanging environment to sit in, our bodies would age and die right out from under us.

So we must find a way to walk with the mountains and fall with the leaves, and it is not stillness. It is dynamic connection with and response to the world. We must keep walking down the path. And the question is, where do we walk? Do we walk where someone else has told us to walk? Or do we find our own way? And how do we do that? How do I trust myself, when I know how easily I can be fooled and swayed by the world, and my own thinking? It comes to light when a question comes, a real question, one that cannot be answered and won't go away, but that requires me to follow its contour and rhythm.

This well-known quote from Rilke comes to mind:

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I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by alan.r

Me too. Right on, Kojip. Though, maybe not the mystery part. But everything else. I think mystery is kind of like awe, or, I don't know. I'll let Cormac say it:

"Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. You could see them standing in the amber current where the white edges of their fins wimpled softly in the flow. They smelled of moss in your hand. Polished and muscular and torsional. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery."

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Hi Alan. I guess the word “mystery” can mean different things. To me mystery is a reaching for hidden truth, born from reaching, made of reaching, and left hanging. With no reaching there is no dark corner, no behind, or hint of a behind , or a within, or a without, or a beyond. In negative language it is Cessation of Dukkha, in positive language I've always loved the term “Mahamudra” , which weirdly enough is no secret to painters..though not by that name. It is the body, mind, and world , of self-luminous self-same perfection, standing alone, with all shadow of mystery long long forgotten.

But.. this is talk from a painter after a good studio session, rather than a humble Buddhist student. So please don't take it too seriously. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galen

Your stance kind of reminds of the take Mormonism takes on their teachers, and thus students, at BYU; if read, write books and transcripts or stand for something outside their doctrine (no opens minds in this church, don’t go there) you are excommunicated or treated very harshly in public. That is fear and paranoia on steroids, and why many look at it as shallow cult.

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Hi Galen,

I did underline in my posting ...

I do not particularly recommend it for us "Zen Farmers", although it might be good for the "warriors" ...

I am not being critical, and it is simply that our Soto way is different (same ... but different). I primarily provide this information because folks should know that there are very different approaches to Zen and Zazen, and not all "Zen" is of the same flavor (different ... but the same).

If wishing to master Aikido, one should not set out to do so by learning and practicing Karate ... nor someone's invented hybrid "Airate". One may learn about Karate a bit as another great way ... but realize that it is not Aikido if one wishes to learn Aikido. That does not mean, however, that Aikido is the best way for all people, nor that Karate and Airate are not also wonderful for people mastering those. I know they are, and many paths up the non-mountain mountain.

I haven't looked at the book for a couple of years, and will try to read it again.

Kapleau Roshi/TPZ is further discussed in these threads ...

SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN (Part 1)
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...N-%28Part-1%29

SPECIAL READING - (MORE) ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...TWICE-BORN-ZEN

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Originally Posted by Kojip

Another way of looking at doubt involved realizing that the problem was not a fundamental existential question, or mystery.... “mystery” is a mcguffin. The problem is the basic feeling of incompleteness holding sway. Existential doubt and mystery are just a mental production of that basic feeling, and that is basically the First, Second and Third Noble Truths. Looking at Doubt means looking at the feeling, the very basic sense of incompleteness, being it unconditionally. Then the feeling , the doubt, the question, the answer, the mystery,... all of it .....is resolved. Not answered, just resolved, like a knot, in just sitting. Doubt is done...when reaching is done.

Also , the “kapow!” one time Big Enlightenement idea is I believe a matter of framing. Practice has no end, and no final state, that much is clear to me. Practice goes on, and there are plenty of “Ah” moments, some big some small.

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PLEASE, EVERYONE, READ THE ABOVE WORDS THREE TIMES, AND THREE TIMES AGAIN. gassho2

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Originally Posted by alan.r

... Though, maybe not the mystery part. But everything else. I think mystery is kind of like awe ...

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I think this is so too, at least for me. Great Awe.

Gassho, J

Ah, I have a very different sense of what the word "mystery" refers to, kojip. For me, "mystery" is a quality in things or situations I encounter that points to something that my left brain could never define, but that connects with some quality of knowing that occurs in a different modality. I mean, sure, there is the "mystery" of a detective story that is an answer waiting to be found; but then there is the mystery of a David Lynch movie, full of "clues" that are empty signifiers, pointing to some dark reality that you can feel but can't fully explain. "The owls are not what they seem..."

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

In the Soto way, in Dogen's way, there is no end point to practice, not even temporarily. The blue mountains are walking. How can you get to the top of a mountain that is moving? You can try to hold on, I suppose; try not to get swept away in the river of loss, try to shield the tree from the autumn wind so the leaves will not fall. Yes, there is a stillness that pervades even the most chaotic environment, but we cannot stay in it. Even if we could find a perfectly still, unchanging environment to sit in, our bodies would age and die right out from under us.

So we must find a way to walk with the mountains and fall with the leaves, and it is not stillness. It is dynamic connection with and response to the world. We must keep walking down the path.

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This is exactly right, Stephanie. Beautifully expressed. gassho2 Our way of Stillness is both moving and still, rarely staying and standing still. It is the Peaceful that's so Full of Life that it need -not- always feel peaceful.

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And the question is, where do we walk? Do we walk where someone else has told us to walk? Or do we find our own way? And how do we do that? How do I trust myself, when I know how easily I can be fooled and swayed by the world, and my own thinking? It comes to light when a question comes, a real question, one that cannot be answered and won't go away, but that requires me to follow its contour and rhythm.

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If that feels right for you, then do that. You are the best and ultimate judge as to whether some way of being is fruitful or a dead end. Like a doctor prescribing medicines, if one cure does not work ... try a different medicine. If a dosage works, drink that.

Gassho, J

This is such an interesting conversation! Pontus proves me completely wrong and finally there's a clarification that Great Doubt isn't the same as 'Kensho or Bust' pressure cooker sitting. I think of the proper attitude a bit like 'leaning into' the practice. Too much driving is suspicious. Too much relaxing is also suspicious.

And this thread shows how great this community is!

Chet

Clarification: I'm hardly an expert or anything. When I say 'the proper attitude', I'm speaking only of my own practice.

Chet

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

I think of the proper attitude a bit like 'leaning into' the practice. Too much driving is suspicious. Too much relaxing is also suspicious.

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That sounds in tune to me. I often repeat the story of Buddha, Sona and the Lute Strings ...

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[The Buddha said], "Sona, you were a musician and you used to play the lute. Tell me, Sona, did you produce good music when the lute string was well tuned, neither too tight nor too loose?"

"I was able to produce good music, Lord," replied Sona.

"What happened when the strings were too tightly wound up?"

"I could not produce any music, Lord," said Sona.

"What happened when the strings were too slack?"

"I could not produce any music at all, Lord," replied Sona

"Sona ... You have been straining too hard in your meditation. Do it in a relaxed way, but without being slack. Try it again and you will experience the good result."

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Gassho, J

Brilliant thread - thanks for starting this discussion Stephanie.

Gassho

Willow

I should have put a disclaimer on my post - I was NOT referring to the Kapleau book, although I was aware that it has that title. I thought that other teachers have also used the expression of "pillars", although now I am not 100% sure. The first time I understood the 3 pillars was in Master Sheng-yen's "Getting the Buddha Mind", which is on the ZMM reading list.
(There is a story of a Japanese master who understood the English words to be "pillows of zen" and gave a whole talk about it, I think it was Suzuki Roshi.)

I totally agree that "Great Doubt isn't the same as 'Kensho or Bust' pressure cooker sitting". Again, Stephanie has expressed it beautifully. In my words it's when all your belief systems start to have holes or even completely collapse, and you want to find a quick answer that mends it all, but you know there isn't one, and you don't try to escape from that place.

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Originally Posted by Nindo

In my words it's when all your belief systems start to have holes or even completely collapse, and you want to find a quick answer that mends it all, but you know there isn't one, and you don't try to escape from that place.

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Now that's a damn good description too! :)

/Pontus

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Originally Posted by willow

Brilliant thread - thanks for starting this discussion Stephanie.

Gassho

Willow

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Maybe even Great Thread. And when I encounter Great Thread, like most I suspect, it is always the one Thread which shatters me, collapsing my little belief system and filling me with Great Awe (no doubt) for all the beings participating in Great Thread and their words there, and as much as my little mind might want answers as to why one particular Thread is Great, what makes it Great, I simply sit with Great Thread, live with Great Thread, even become one with Great Thread, realizing all threads and beings (even the tiniest thread with but nary a reply, and even those beings not participating in Great Thread) are all contained in that ever-ongoing-yet-completely-still Great Thread.

Gassho
alan

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Originally Posted by alan.r

Maybe even Great Thread. And when I encounter Great Thread, like most I suspect, it is always the one Thread which shatters me, collapsing my little belief system and filling me with Great Awe (no doubt) for all the beings participating in Great Thread and their words there, and as much as my little mind might want answers as to why one particular Thread is Great, what makes it Great, I simply sit with Great Thread, live with Great Thread, even become one with Great Thread, realizing all threads and beings (even the tiniest thread with but nary a reply, and even those beings not participating in Great Thread) are all contained in that ever-ongoing-yet-completely-still Great Thread.

Gassho
alan

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Awesome! [claps] gassho2

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Originally Posted by alan.r

Maybe even Great Thread. And when I encounter Great Thread, like most I suspect, it is always the one Thread which shatters me, collapsing my little belief system and filling me with Great Awe (no doubt) for all the beings participating in Great Thread and their words there, and as much as my little mind might want answers as to why one particular Thread is Great, what makes it Great, I simply sit with Great Thread, live with Great Thread, even become one with Great Thread, realizing all threads and beings (even the tiniest thread with but nary a reply, and even those beings not participating in Great Thread) are all contained in that ever-ongoing-yet-completely-still Great Thread.

Gassho
alan

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Haha LOVELY! gassho1