I mean thats why we are all here. One day everything we love will be taken from us and we will cease to be and we must somehow find a way to make that ok.
Gassho, Jeffrey
Printable View
On the subject of Zen and Catholicism, I dont see a way to serve two masters. One can certainly use Zen practices and be part of any religion. I just see it as a "Jack of all trades, master of none" situation. I think many people straddle both paths in an attempt to hold onto a fallacious belief in a personal god that resides outside of ones self, yet really never commit to either path. I see it as trying to cover all bases in a "just in case" scenario. I find the god of the old testament to behave like a spoiled toddler, throwing tantrums, making absurd demands on "his" followers and displaying symptoms of a major psychotic disorder at best. I'm not trying to offend anyone here I am just being pointed about what I see as a major negetive force in our world at large.
Gassho, Jeffrey
Seems to me you have some way still to go, but that is OK.
Gassho
Enkyo
Every single thing is just the One Mind. When you have perceived this, you will have mounted the Chariot of the Buddhas.” (Huang Po)
Kind regards. /\
The current pope is a very simple and humble man. He just fired a bishop for spending too much money on housing renovations. Very encouraging.
Kind regards. /\
:d
e.
Hi Rich,
I guess you mean that German bishop? Actually, the pope did not fire him, but only suspended him. AFAIK the vatican was even informed about the lavish bishop all the time (for those who don't know: he said the new residence would cost about 1 or 2 million EUR, but at the moment numbers have risen to almost 40 million EUR - quite some difference), but the public pressure here in Germany has been getting higher and higher. Lots of catholics here (and protestants strangely as well) are really upset by this.
However, I have also read recently that it is quite normal that a bishop gets a residence in that price range around here - it's just not made public like in that case.
Yes, I also think the new pope is of a different kind than the previous one (more down to earth), but it is hard to tell what really comes from his heart or what comes due to a reaction that is expected by public.
Media are reporting on this every day here and they want to see something happen.
Is the pope a simple and humble man? I don't know, but I do know he is not beyond dispute, especially because of some serious accusations made against him in the past, i.e. the role he might have played during the brutal military dictatorship in Argentina.
Anyway, we will probably never find that out, and it really does not matter to our practice anyway.
I just wanted to point out that we should be careful whether we call someone a simple, humble man or a bad man. What do we really know about him?
However, I must admit that I'd not call the vatican a humble residence... :p (SCNR)
Gassho,
Timo
He doesn't live in the official papal residence in the Vatican. Thinks its too luxurious so he lives in a small apartment there, so I heard.
Kind regards. /\
Here's what he said about non believers
“[W]e also sense our closeness to all those men and women who, although not identifying themselves as followers of any religious tradition, are nonetheless searching for truth, goodness and beauty, the truth, goodness and beauty of God. They are our valued allies in the commitment to defending human dignity, in building a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in safeguarding and caring for creation"
Kind regards. /\
Hi Rich,
Thank you for this quote. Yes, it is a huge step indeed, and AFAIK he also made an important step toward homosexuals.
This gives me hope for a more tolerant and open Catholic Church. That's actually what lots of its followers are hoping, too.
This is a chance for change, let's hope the rest of the church uses this opportunity!
Gassho,
Timo
Thanks, timo. I hope so. BTW what is Afaik. 😊
Kind regards. /\
Yes, it is the ego (the little "self") that fears its own death. But please realize that Zen Practice ... and most of Buddhism ... is very much about this matter of "life and death". Every Zen Temple has this written near the Zendo Door ...
Let me respectfully remind you, life and death are of supreme importance.
Most Buddhists, traditionally, have believed that there are future Rebirths into other lives ... or maybe into a "Pure Land" where one may sit at a Buddha's feet. Not all modern, especially Western, Buddhists believe so (I am a skeptical agnostic on the issue, and it is not so vital to my "right here, right now in this life" Practice), but certainly the vast vast majority of Buddhists did ... and still do ... think so in Asia.
But the interesting fact is that, whether one believes in "rebirth into future lifes" or not ... almost ALL Buddhists I know believe the following:
That life and death are kind of a dream, a state of mind. In other words, "rebirth" (even if you believe in it) exists precisely because you believe in it! When you wake up from the dream, the dream vanishes. One is reborn until one stops thinking and acting like they will be reborn, thus causing rebirth![scared] So, whether one believes or not ... WAKE UP!
What is more, there is that transcendent of small human judgments of "start and finish, life and death, beginnings and endings". This is a fact that almost every present or ancient Zen Buddhist I know believed in ... both believers AND modern skeptics of post mortum rebirth, everyone. Namely, that we are "suchness", even after we "kick the bucket" when the bottom falls out of the bucket. (The best, but somewhat misleading, example is the "waves and sea" example ... where each of the waves worries about what will become of itself when it crashes on the rocky shore, not realizing that each wave was just the water and sea all along). We die, we crash on the beach ... yet roll on and on.
Oh, we believe in a kind of "survival beyond death" too. Better said, we belief in a kind of "survival-non-survival" beyond all small human division of "life and death, starts and finishes".
(By the way, I think one could still Practice "here and now just this life" Zen Buddhism just fine even if thinking the we are totally "kaput", dead and done with, when we go to the grave. No problem. Whatever the case ... rebirth or ocean or not ... just live gently here and now).
Gassho, J
I think something survives death but not the individual personality, but it seems that this something goes back into the pool of energy from whence it came, into the non-dual whole, which we exist in anyway but are too ignorant to see it. In a way we are already dead. I fully agree with the dream analogy. At times consciousness is murky at best but one gets a distinct feeling that they aren't seeing the entire picture, that there is so much more beyond the illusion and limitations of the five physical sense fields. I'm a skeptic at heart so when the unicorns and fairies come out in any belief system I tend to cringe. And I'm just not a fan of mixing multiple belief sytems. I think one should do one thing and do it well. My first Zen teacher had us do a meditation where we would visualize the physical body peeling away, layer by layer until there was just our true existence left. I cant remember what it was called but I think it may have been from the Vajrayana tradition. He was a student of Chogyam Trungpa who later became a student of Kobun Chino Roshi so he tended to bring in aspects of both traditions but firmly seated in Soto Zen.
Gassho, Jeffrey
Hi,
wanted to share some insights.
People may want to look at Jesuit spirituality... the parallels are surprising, even more than normal. The god of everyday life, detachment from our likes and dislikes ("to conquer oneself and to regulate one's life in such a way that no decision is made under the influence of any inordinate attachment.), seeing God everywhere, even in despair or sin ("To see God in all things and all things in God") etc.
St. Ignatius, the founder of the Society of Jesus, once wrote.
In shikantaza, we also give up everything and simply sit. No issue of right or wrong, no issue of left and right, no issue of doing or not doing, no issue of outside and inside. To be still and know God. Who is he? Who is asking?Quote:
Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
and my entire will,
All I have and call my own.
You have given all to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.
Everything is yours; do with it what you will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
that is enough for me.
I once had a Jesuit math teacher. A lot of people were failing in class and asked what the use of math was, especially to those who won't be needing it for their supposed career paths. He said that, like the enjoying a beautiful sunset, math does not particularly need a use, despite actually being useful.
As a side note, one of the biggest zen groups we have here in the philippines is FILLED with the Catholic religious as zen teachers.
And here's a short trailer of a doc bout Christian-Buddhist dialogue. The guy with the cool east coast (not really familiar with Americanaccents that well.) accent is Fr. Kennedy S.J. Roshi.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRWm2YNPFA4
Gassho, Ben
Thank you Ben. Maria Theresa used to sit in meditation much similar to our practice. Why similar? Because when she was asked what she was doing sitting like that she answered. "I'm listening to God and he is listening to me". I know it's not shikantaza ( Zen is different from meditation) but this story always amazes me.
Jeffrey: The beauty of our Way ( and this sangha) is the fact that we do NOT discard or take a position against any other religion, belief or culture that gives guidance to people and make them try to live a good and productive life. Simply because we don't know anything for sure and are just fine with that. Is there a God? Maybe yes maybe no. My personal choice is yes but will respect any other standpoint just the same. Thinking or wagging a finger to anyone saying "I'm right and you are not" is the only real mistake we can make in this.
My mother used to say that if you are doing something you can continue doing when Jesus returns, you'll alright. If i'm sitting and He comes, great! If I sit and He does not come yet, also fine. Does not matter in shikantaza. Nothing matters in shikantaza because it's all there. Whole and complete. As good a take on it as any. Of course, of Nazi Buddhist, Child molesting Christian, Mass murdering Mohammedan we can all safely say that is not so good. So will all people observing these and all other religions that make our world so interesting. Why crusading against religion? Yes, I am offended by you calling religion a Mind F*&% but you seem to feel very strongly about it, so it's OK. Why? Something to work with and all good practice
Struggling to deny something forcefully and discarding someones belief system out of hand, is also a form of ego attachment and should be let go of AFAIK (lol) in my humble opinion. I'll always stick to what Nishijima Roshi used to say on this matter: "Both true!" Works for me. Shall we sit [happy]?
Gassho
Enkyo
Hi Enkyo,
Please don't take the following personal, but when you feel offended when someone says religion is a Mind F*, than IMHO you are the one who feels very strongly about it.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't want to attack you, but I think this is a sign of attachment or even of identification.
If someone said to me "Zen is just huge pile of horse manure" I would not be upset in the least, because I don't identify with Zen, I just practice it.
When you feel upset just because someone attacked religion, you might identify with it. Jeffrey attacked religion, not you as a person. So why feel offended?
Moreover, I think Jeffrey referred to the religious indoctrination in early childhood. Thing is, this is a huge pilar of success for religions: the earlier you begin to plant seeds, the higher the success rate. Little children believe almost anything.
I don't teach anything about Zen/Buddhism to my daughter, as I don't want to indoctrinate her. I let her ask. If she wants to know something, I try to explain it.
If she someday wants to become a Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. - so be it!
However, if I actively tried to make her become a Buddhist, I would do nothing else than indoctrination myself (I want to avoid the expression Mindf* here).
Just to shed light from a different angle here. These kinds of discussions can be a chance to reveal our own attachments.
Gassho,
Timo
Hello,
as long as one still identifies as something (other than in a very playful sense) or someone, the bucket's bottom has not fallen out yet. Does one serve truth wholeheartedly, or identities and beloved ideas instead?
I leave the rest to the scholars.
Gassho,
Hans Chudo Mongen
Again I just want to reiterate it was not my intention to offend anyone. In this world and in this sangha I'm sure there are those of us who have been burned very badly by western religions and have very deep scars to heal due to that. Do I need to let that go, heal and move on? Maybe. Or maybe I just need to accept things exactly as they are and leave it at that. I sit for all whom have inflicted pain and suffering on me and other LGBT people in this world.
Gassho, Jeffrey
Hello Jeffrey,
it's all okay if we can take a deep breath once in a while and just acknowledge that communication itself is a very tough business.
One person refers to religion and relates it to lots of structural and historical facts, others to their own life awareness shaped by certain wonderful individuals that belonged to a tradition, others again just mix and match to their heart's content and are too busy trying to be a good person to stop and wonder too much about definitions.
Where I personally totally agree is that these days our individualist culture has led to the erosion of useful definitions.
I am luckily in no position to tell anyone when they start/stop being a Catholic/Jew etc., but as a matter of personal opinion I am also a bit sad that basically Catholic/Buddhist can mean just about anything these days.
However, in terms of Zen practise all those labels are just useful bullshit anyhow. Look at people walking their walk, not how they talk their talk :)
Gassho,
Hans Chudo Mongen
I've personally had to wrestle some with reinterpreting Christianity so it can have meaning for me. I don't live in an area that has any Mahayana Buddhist centers, so I have to go to Christian Churches in order to have a spiritual community.
Some things that have helped me is to re-imagine God as something more abstract. I've found a lot of teachers make comparisons of God with the Dharmakaya. I've even reframed God as Amitabha Buddha. Obviously, the "Creator God" part doesn't work, if you do this, but I don't mind just dropping that belief. I can also easily see Jesus as a Bodhisattva.
I go to an Episcopal Church, not a Catholic one. I'm thankful that in the Episcopal Church no one really bats an eye if you have to reframe things like this.
For me personally, I mainly only look to the Gospels. I don't pay much attention to the rest of the bible.
I partially agree and disagree, Daitetsu. On the one hand side, Catholicism seems to force you to believe things while Zen (on the other hand side) wants you to check things yourself. (At least in my humble understanding.)
There was a famous German Zen master called Hugo Enomyia-Lassalle who also was a member of a Catholic order. I believe he practice Zen at Hosshinji monastery in Japan. This can kind of prove that Catholicism and Zen can go hand in hand.
Here's a free book by Kurosaki Kokichi about the origins of Christian sects. And in the book you're also told about what originally Christianity was in the beginning. Having practiced Buddhist meditation for a while, some passages sound very familiar to me.
Father Kevin Hunt, Trappist, and a transmitted Zen teacher "tells me a story about St. Theresa of Avila. When she was a little girl, someone asked her what she wanted in life. She told them, “I want to see God.” “That’s all I’ve ever wanted to do,” Kevin tells me, “and Zen has provided the best way for me to do it.”.
https://rickmdaniel.blogspot.com/201...evin-hunt.html
As a former Catholic and seminarians back when, I agree with you
Gassho
John
SatTodayLAH
Leaving things as they are includes no judgement.
Big fan of Merton's Seven Storey Mountain; also big fan of Merton's Zen and the Birds of Appetite. I used to read his paraphrases of Chuang Tze and go out and sit under the trees, stunned.
The birds flitted from branch to branch and picked bugs.
gassho
two-face sat/lah
the original post
Well, as the discussion made more than clear, that depends on the person, how it is done, how wide the heart, how boundless the space there, and how doctrines are interpreted. There are many Catholic Zen folks, included quite a few excellent Priest-Roshi.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
This is the only place where i can read what i said 9 years ago
Cool
Sat/lah
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A thought
Straddle
Too wide a river,
And both feet
Get wet
Gassho
Zenkon
sat/lah
There's a scene in "on Golden Pond" that depicts this poem Perfectly.
gassho, Shokai
stlah
You say.Quote:
Zen and Catholicism are not compatible
The question - Is Zen compatible with Catholicism? - assumes there is an absolute answer - a yes or a no. In truth, there are only relative answers - in many ways they ARE compatible and in many ways they ARE NOT. Look for the compatible areas, and you will find compatibility. Look for incompatible areas, and you find incompatibility. The only thing 100% compatible with zen is - zen! And, the same with Catholicism. So, perhaps the real question is - what does it matter?
Gassho
Zenkon
This has a lot of truth to it. As a former Catholic, my instinct is that the answer is no, but for so many others there appears to be no problem. And since I no longer believe in Catholicism it doesn't bother me where people blend lines because I don't believe in the lines in the first place.
Gassho
Sat, lah
For me, Zen and Catholicism go well together. Yes, there are obvious differences, but I also find equanimity and balance in the precepts and themes of both religions. I did try to choose one or the other, but this is not possible for me at this time. It is something I have made peace with.
Gassho st
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Hey all
This is an interesting debate. I enjoy interfaith communication and collaboration and always believe that we should focus on what we agree on, such as ethical standards for human behaviour. I don't know why we need to reconcile a religion with any other beyond that, each to their own beliefs and practices. We don't have a Buddhist school in my city so I send my children to a Catholic school, for the spiritual and ethical/moral/value-based education. But I wouldn't send them to some other Christian schools because I don't want them to be indoctrinated with what I view as fairy tales. A friend asked me recently how, at work, I can tell the difference between someone who is delusional and someone who just has alternative beliefs. So I told him the creation story and what a modern Christian might see as God's active involvement with their daily life. I then asked him to replace the word God with the word 'alien' and asked him whether he now thought that story was delusional or belief based - tricky isn't it?
It has been a feature of the threads for years here that you can practice Zen without negatively impacting your other beliefs or participation in religion but, in my opinion, the key 'other' religions have little to offer Zen practice because Zen is quite distinct. If you believe in a God (of sorts) then I think there could be a wonderful union of the two, but if you do not believe in a theistic God then I don't see any value in saying that we believe in the 'Universe' as a concept that fulfils the function of God, I don't make a meaningful connection between the two at all. I do know that some sanghas and traditions honour the 'Unborn' or the 'Undying' as essentially a God concept, others still have Gods and Devas left-right-and-centre. At the end of the day I simply don't know, the whole thing (creation) is just weird, and wonderful too. Whatever helps you on your path towards doing good and not doing evil is a beautiful thing.
Gassho, Tokan
satlah
Just an additional thought...
Along with many other threads here where we express opinions, I like to remember the difference between opinions and convictions, and always hope that both (within me) are open to adaptation and growth.
Gassho, Tokan
satlah
I have sat sesshin in a zen monastery alongside Jesuit monks. No problem. I couldn't say whether another person's silence is much different to my silence. Which silence is the most silent? It seems to me that it's up to each individual to walk whatever path they are on, be that one exclusive path, or path that includes two (or more) traditions simultaneously. As far as I am concerned, if someone wants to be a Catholic OR a Buddhist, fine. And if someone wants to be a Catholic AND a Buddhist, also fine.
My lovely Hindu friend has a great attitude. If there is a Hindu temple in town, she'll visit it. If not, she'll visit the Gurdwara, the Buddhist temple, the Christian church - whatever is there - and pray as usual - wherever she ends up.
Isn't how you ARE, more important than what you BELIEVE?
That noise is me climbing down off my soapbox. Haha!
Gasshō
Seiko
stlah